There is a discussion on the Carfree Network list about induced
demand, which is based on a theory that 'congestion is the only true
limiting factor in unregulated traffic'.

"Amsterdam does not have congestion charging, but it has successfully
reduced traffic to and in the inner city by implementing three
measures, preceded by a referendum early nineties. Introduction of
ever increasing parking rates, approaching € 5 per hour now; reducing
the number of parking places; introducing lots of one way streets. The
results are very good."

"On the other hand, where data for shrinkage is tough to come by,
evidence for the concept of induced capacity, whereby new roadway
space attracts more cars, is thoroughly described in journals and
traffic studies and is far more available."

"As long as people keep packing into the cities, you will have an ever
increasing problem. Traffic congestion is only one of them.

Doug riseup.net> gurgled happily, sounding much like they were
saying:

Hey, maybe London could try those...

Oh, wait... €5/hr would be a massive reduction, there's virtually no
parking places other than commercially run car parks, and I'm not
entirely sure they COULD one-way any more streets...

As long as you're not actually trying to get anywhere to do business...

Do you have an opinion on this para, Duhg?

On 8 Sep, 08:03, Adrian gmail.com> wrote:

Doug riseup.net> gurgled happily, sounding much like they were
saying:

You'd be the first to moan when your bus is delayed because somebody's
trying to get several cubic metres of goods to be delivered in the doors.

On Sun, 7 Sep 2008 23:38:28 -0700 (PDT), Doug riseup.net>
wrote:

Correct. Now just remind me, who is it that wants us all living in
concrete blocks within cycling distance of work?

Only some? Presumably the others "figured out" something different.

In article <128bafb0-509e-44bf-b8ef-76efa3715b55
@d1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, Doug says...

For making sure you can't get to where you want when you need to?
You're spot on there.

But it was YOU, Doug, who WANTED everyone to move from the country to
cities and its impossible to accommodate all of those people without
building on greenfield sites. Then of course you have the problem about
what to do with the people who work in farming.

higher fuel costs have meant fewer drivers using their cars in the last few
months so those who can (afford 2?) drive have beneffited

On the other hand the Greenies just hate cars so when they influence
councils to muck about with timings of traffic lights causing congestion all
they do is slow down traffic and increase harmful emmissions - so where
does that help the planet?

Doug riseup.net> wrote:

Is there? How nice for them. Is it all bollocks like the stuff you
posted?

Doug wrote:

[ ... ]

As long as your term "cities" also includes large towns that don't have the
status of a city, I couldn't agree more.

Well said.

One small point, however: where I have elided your comments above, you had
the phrase "and concreting". I don't know what you mean by that biy, so can't
agree with it. I would not be happy if I were prevented from widening the
driveway of my non-urban home, for instance.

On Sun, 7 Sep 2008 23:38:28 -0700 (PDT), Doug riseup.net>
wrote:

It's not been sensible to take a car into Omsterdom for well over 20
years it's best left to the tourists, hippies, and junkies.

OTOH Den Haag / Scheveningen is very pleasant and accessible by car.