I just reread the Mundy article and thought that you could be right but
since he doesn't bring that up, who knows. Isn't he the one who puts on
that miracle conference in February? and isn't Renard one of the speakers?
I don't know what his history is there and haven't been following all that
stuff.... Still, it was a really good article. What I like is that he
brings up how the Course never says that it is "the" way but "a" way --
which is one of the things I've always loved about ACIM. And something else
he wrote that I had underlined is that a true teacher knows that they are
nobody special, just serving in the ways they are called to serve. BTW, I
haven't read his magazine until the last few months when it began arriving
in my mail. With the first one, for whatever reason, I was going to toss it
and happened to open it to an article that totally spoke to some issue in my
life that I was currently dealing with -- very good. As I perused the rest
of the magazine, I thought wow, this is actually pretty good. This
particular issue I really enjoyed and loved that bible puzzle, although no
one I know has been able to get that 30th book! Anyone here? I also really
liked the article on the gospel of judas, I had recently ordered the book
and only briefly perused the article, thinking I'll read it when I read the
book. But one thing I did notice in the article that resonated with me is
that would Jesus set up his brother to do something that would bring shame ...

Sheryl "I just reread the Mundy article and thought that you could be
right but since he doesn't bring that up, who knows."

~ I don't know what to say. That's what "reading between the lines"
is all about . . . . understanding what isn't expressed openly.

Sheryl " Isn't he the one who puts on that miracle conference in
February?"

~ The 2007 conference is being organized and is hosted by Rev. Tony
Ponticello and Rev. Larry Bedini of the Community Miracles Center in
San Francisco. Jon Mundy is one of nine co-sponsors of the
conference.

http://www.miracles-course.org/Miracles5_2007.html

Tom wrote:

Perhaps many people like Mundy are coming to their senses about Renard
who conducts himself as a radical and extremist. Renard is inevitably
going to be associated with huckerterism . . .so how exactly is that
going to serve ACIM??

Tom,

"1. We have watched many people create fictionalized versions of the
spiritual path"

To accentuate your personal belief system, and give one familiar piece
of evidence for the kinds of "investigation" and "research" you do to
find people liars, and their visions absolute lies:

As in Carmen's insistence that she sees large breasted white barbie
doll images of angels come to her room, and advise her, and we are to
believe her. And, further, that she utilizes "automatic" writing,
channeling these images via divine "artwork" and is simply a conduit
for the images.

Uh, I don't think so. And you've presented plenty of information here
as to why we shouldn't find what she does authentic in anyway.

If the burning bush is to be found as folly, visions of Mary at Fatima
egotistical, and appearances of wise men delivering message as lies,
well, Carmen's delusions fail in even an ounce of credibility,
according to your own mis-perceived standards.

Jeanette

A Great Place for Course in Miracles discussion: pointofperfection.com

Tom,

And the reason for your sudden "researching," with attempts to turn
over "lies" is because of your failings as the Grand Urtext Puhba, as
your goals and plans, made you were so sure with the Holy Spirit's
inspiration, have become fruitless.

Therefore, you now must step on everyone else who feels they have
received vision or divine message in order to provide yourself with
some comforting evidence that since your "visions" and "goals" failed,
no one else could possibly be led by the Holy Spirit in visionary
experience with the divine.

IOW, since your life is a facade, so must be every other spiritual man
of wisdom. And I completely disagree with the article. Mary was brought
the message of Jesus by dream, and countless people have had authentic
visions with the divine. It isn't just daily life which is of value in
spiritual path or purpose. What the Course says is the daily life is
simply an outcome we can view to see if our decisions have been of
rightmindedness. IOW, divine Presence, and revelatory experience, are
inextricably intertwined with the outcomes in our daily lives, IF, we
choose to follow the Call, and become a miracle worker.

Sheryl Valentine wrote:

Good point? How about an obvious point? Its the point, Gene Smith has
been making about Renard and his book.

There's nothing "spiritual" about someone claiming fiction is fact.

Jeanette "If the burning bush is to be found as folly, visions of Mary
at Fatima egotistical, and appearances of wise men delivering message
as lies, well, Carmen's delusions fail in even an ounce of
credibility, according to your own mis-perceived standards."

~ Let me see if I understand your thinking. Renard is telling the
truth because God appeared to Moses as a burning bush, but Carmen is
lying because . . . . because . . . because of what? Because you
don't like her?

~ Well, that's OK with me. Nothing that Carmen and I do requires you
believe it, like it, or accept it. But, I just have to wonder . . .
what on earth is your problem?

~ What do you want? Do you even know?

Tom,

"~ Let me see if I understand your thinking. Renard is telling the
truth because God appeared to Moses as a burning bush, but Carmen is
lying because . . . . because . . . because of what? Because you
don't like her? "

No. Your inability to understand, and attempts to deceive the reader of
my message is clear.

You have quoted, again and again, passages which deem to show exactly
what Carmen does is deceptive.

You have also stated, again and again, visions are for naught, because
they aren't about proven evidence in daily life, and so Renard is
obviously lying. Beings cannot appear to teach, because according to
Tom's philsophy they are mere delusions. Yet, you are quite choosy as
to who you find is lying, because you have vested interest in your
egotistical wishes.

Carmen remains an exception, because you remain blinded.

I don't really have any problems right now, Tom. Although it appears
you do.

And yes I clearly know what I want, but I wouldn't share that with you.

Tom,

"Nothing that Carmen and I do requires you believe it, like it, or
accept it."

I don't believe it, like it, or accept it. Anyone who would use the
divine in order to putrify cannot possibly be honorable.

Jeanette

A Great Place for Course in Miracles discussion: pointofperfection.com

Tom,
"~ Let me see if I understand your thinking. Renard is telling the
truth because God appeared to Moses as a burning bush, but Carmen is
lying because . . . . because . . . because of what? Because you
don't like her? "

Jeanette "You have quoted, again and again, passages which deem to
show exactly what Carmen does is deceptive."

~ What are you talking about? What passages have I quoted "again and
again"?

Jeanette "You have also stated, again and again, visions are for
naught . . . . "

~ I have NEVER sated "visions are for naught," or anything similar.

Jeanette " . . . . because they aren't about proven evidence in daily
life, and so Renard is obviously lying."

~ Yes, I believe that Renard lied about his experience.

Jeanette "Beings cannot appear to teach, because according to
Tom's philsophy they are mere delusions."

~ No, I do not believe that Renard is delusional. I believe that he
is lying. There is a difference.