http://www.nnseek.com/e/talk.religion.christian.roman-catholic/ Posts for talk.religion.christian.roman-catholic Tue, 16 Jan 2007 13:47:26 PST http://www.nnseek.com/ http://www.nnseek.com/img/64.png 64 64 NNSeek http://www.nnseek.com/e/talk.religion.christian.roman-catholic/iraqi_lynchings_bring_more_denunciations_43406606t.html http://www.nnseek.com/e/talk.religion.christian.roman-catholic/iraqi_lynchings_bring_more_denunciations_43406606t.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/15/AR2007011500401_pf... Iraqi Hangings Bring More Denunciations Head of Hussein's Half Brother Is Severed By Joshua Partlow and Muhanned Saif Aldin Washington Post Foreign Service BAGHDAD, Jan. 15 -- By the time the corpses of Saddam Hussein's half brother and another top official, hanged before dawn Monday, arrived in the village of Auja for burial, the word had spread among the mourners: The head of Hussein's brother had been severed from his body. Many of the people who had gathered considered the decapitation of Barzan Ibrahim to be a calculated insult, another act by the Shiite-dominated government of Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki to humiliate followers of the executed former president and all his fellow Sunni Arabs. A doctor inspected the remains to assess the government's explanation that the noose inadvertently took off the head after Ibrahim dropped through the trapdoor of the scaffold. "We knew that he would be executed and would join a parade of heroes, but Maliki, why did you behead him?" asked Salam al-Tikriti, 41, a relative of Ibrahim. "Why did you insult his body? Are you still afraid of him even after he is dead? We will cut your heads the same way that you are cutting the heads of the heroes of Iraq." In many parts of Iraq, the executions set off new waves of anger and celebration along sectarian lines, though Maliki's government had gone to great pains to prevent the type of chaotic spectacle that accompanied Hussein's hanging two weeks ago, when Shiite witnesses in the execution chamber taunted Hussein. Shiites celebrated the new executions, while Sunni politicians vented. Alaa Makki, a Sunni legislator, said that justice was done but the manner of the execution was disturbing. "Everybody knows that when you hang people, rarely the head will be decapitated from the body," he said, criticizing what he called a "revenge on the body." "It denotes that people are very reactive and very extremist and they want revenge," he said. Hussein al-Falluji, another Sunni legislator, called the executions "illegitimate and illegal." The hangings drew criticism from abroad as well. The Moroccan Human Rights Association said they were a "criminal political assassination masterminded by American imperialism." A U.N. spokesman expressed regret that Secretary General Ban Ki Moon's request to spare the two men's lives was not granted. Jos? Manuel Barroso, president of the European Commission, the European Union's executive arm, said after the hangings that he would back an Italian initiative for a worldwide moratorium on capital punishment under U.N. auspices. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, visiting Egypt, said she believed the hangings of Hussein and the two others were mishandled and should have been carried out with "greater dignity." Ibrahim, who ran Hussein's intelligence service, or Mukhabarat, and Awad Haman Bander, leader of Hussein's Revolutionary Court, were put to death at 3 a.m. Monday, government spokesman Ali Dabbagh said. They had been sentenced to death for their role in the killings of 148 men and boys from the Shiite village of Dujail following an assassination attempt against Hussein in 1982. Iraqi officials denied that the decapitation was intentional, saying that Ibrahim's neck had been unable to absorb the noose's force. Dabbagh described it as a "rare incident" in a hanging and said that the proceeding was marked by professionalism and restraint not shown during Hussein's execution. For Monday's hangings, the Iraqi government restricted the witnesses to a judge, a prosecutor, a doctor, a prison warden and representatives of the Interior Ministry and the prime minister's office, Dabbagh said. They made the attendees sign documents pledging they would not misbehave, Dabbagh added. "Everyone obeyed the instructions of the government; no violation, chant, slogans or words that would harm the execution of this verdict was registered," he said. Iraqi officials showed silent video clips of the hangings to reporters at a news conference but did not release the footage to the public. According to an Associated Press account of the video, the two defendants appeared side by side at the gallows wearing red prison jumpsuits. They were surrounded by five masked men, and black hoods were placed over their heads. After the trapdoors beneath them opened, Bander dangled from the rope, but the shock of the rope going taut severed Ibrahim's head from his body, both of which fell to the floor, the news service reported. By 6 p.m., the bodies had arrived in Auja, about 100 miles north of Baghdad, and were greeted by more than 1,000 people. The crowd carried the corpses, wrapped in Iraqi flags, on their shoulders into a hall as chants rang out of "Allahu akbar" -- "God is great" -- and guns were fired into the air. The bodies were washed and wrapped in white shrouds before being buried in a garden plot next to the hall that houses Hussein's grave. The crowd surrounded the bodies, and the sound of crying mixed with chanted praises to God. "We are so proud that [Bander] died as a martyr defending his beliefs," said Abdulla al-Sadoon, 55, a relative of Bander from Basra. "It is a proud thing to die like this." Top officials from Salahuddin province attended the burials, and the funerals for Bander and Ibrahim were expected to last three days. The hangings occurred on a day when two top outgoing U.S. officials in Iraq, Gen. George W. Casey Jr. and U.S. Ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad, told reporters that they were optimistic about the new plan to secure Baghdad, saying they sensed a deeper commitment by the Iraqi government to combat Sunni and Shiite extremists who are fighting in the capital. The Shiite-led Iraqi security forces have been widely accused of operating death squads that target Sunnis while allowing Shiite militias in the capital free rein. But Casey added that he did not expect to see significant improvement in Baghdad's security until the summer or fall. "There is a strong political commitment from the government of Iraq to the plan, including the will to act, and including the will not to impose constraints on coalition and Iraqi security forces," Casey said, adding: "As with any plan, there are no guarantees of success, and it's not going to happen overnight. But with sustained political support and concentrated efforts on all sides, I believe that this plan can work." President Bush has committed to send an additional 21,500 troops to Iraq in order to maintain a more visible presence in Baghdad's embattled neighborhoods and provide more support for Iraqi troops. The first of the reinforcements have arrived, Casey said. "Yes, there are still difficulties with the Iraqi security forces; that has been a challenge," he said. "The increased deployment of coalition forces will enable us to increase the level of support we are providing to those forces, to strengthen them a little bit as we go forward with this plan." Also on Monday, the U.S. military announced that a U.S. soldier from the 89th Military Police Brigade died Sunday when a roadside bomb exploded near his vehicle north of Baghdad. The soldier's name was not released. [Aldin reported from Auja. Special correspondents Naseer Nouri and Saad al-Izzi in Baghdad contributed to this report.] * ================================================================ NY Transfer News Collective * A Service of Blythe Systems Since 1985 - Information for the Rest of Us Search Archives: http://olm.blythe-systems.com/htdig/search.html List Archives: http://olm.blythe-systems.com/pipermail/nytr/ Subscribe: http://olm.blythe-systems.com/mailman/listinfo/nytr ================================================================ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFFrUbAiz2i76ou9wQRAiMoAKCe/dRXnF+0ZaBhYVCuB34vgaOMbwCgxXmN Si5+wF1JAOEJKGkWS/ijmfI= =yXGo -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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]]> Tue, 16 Jan 2007 13:47:26 PST http://www.nnseek.com/e/talk.religion.christian.roman-catholic/sleeping_through_the_revolution_king_on_evils_of_w_43183374t.html http://www.nnseek.com/e/talk.religion.christian.roman-catholic/sleeping_through_the_revolution_king_on_evils_of_w_43183374t.html http://www.juancole.com/ "Sleeping through the Revolution": Martin Luther King on the Evils of War by Juan Cole Here are some excerpts on war from Martin Luther King, Jr., "Remaining Awake Through A Great Revolution. [Quotes from King are indented in single quotes. Other comments are Cole's - NYTransfer] 'I want to say one other challenge that we face is simply that we must find an alternative to war and bloodshed. Anyone who feels, and there are still a lot of people who feel that way, that war can solve the social problems facing mankind is sleeping through a great revolution. ' Dr. King was not saying that war cannot solve military problems, you will note. He was saying that it cannot solve social problems. He would have scoffed at the Neoconservative idea that you can spread democracy by war or can improve peoples' economy by war. He thought that the mid twentieth century was witnessing a revolution in human affairs that made war increasingly unacceptable. He probably had in mind nuclear weapons, the use of which normal people consider too horrible to contemplate. He may also have been thinking of Gandhi's attempt to use non-violent non-cooperation in India to expel the British without resorting to guerrilla war. President Kennedy said on one occasion, "Mankind must put an end to war or war will put an end to mankind." The world must hear this. I pray to God that America will hear this before it is too late, because today we're fighting a war. I am convinced that it is one of the most unjust wars that has ever been fought in the history of the world. Our involvement in the war in Vietnam has torn up the Geneva Accord. ' Dr. King recognized that all wars involve the commission of war crimes. Just as no battle plan survives contact with the enemy, no commitment to principles like the Geneva Conventions survives actual warfare in populated areas. The only way to stop war crimes, he is implying, is to stop war. ' It has strengthened the military-industrial complex; it has strengthened the forces of reaction in our nation. ' The United States is a peculiarly war-like country. In the last a little over a century it has sent troops into other countries 100 times. That is once a year! It is also the industrialized democracy with the greatest gap between the wealthy and the poor, where enormous corporations that make money off war have disproportionate influence on government through lobbying and campaign donations and graft. Is there a connection between these two statements? Dr. King seems to have thought so. ' It has put us against the self-determination of a vast majority of the Vietnamese people, and put us in the position of protecting a corrupt regime that is stacked against the poor. It has played havoc with our domestic destinies. This day we are spending five hundred thousand dollars to kill every Vietcong soldier. Every time we kill one we spend about five hundred thousand dollars while we spend only fifty-three dollars a year for every person characterized as poverty-stricken in the so-called poverty program, which is not even a good skirmish against poverty. ' As the destruction of New Orleans and the failure of the Bush administration to rebuild it while spending $2 billion a week on the war in Iraq demonstrate, some things never change. And here is the rest of the passage I have excerpted. Try substituting "Iraq" for "Vietnam": ' Not only that, it has put us in a position of appearing to the world as an arrogant nation. And here we are ten thousand miles away from home fighting for the so-called freedom of the Vietnamese people when we have not even put our own house in order. And we force young black men and young white men to fight and kill in brutal solidarity. Yet when they come back home that can't hardly live on the same block together. The judgment of God is upon us today. And we could go right down the line and see that something must be done--and something must be done quickly. We have alienated ourselves from other nations so we end up morally and politically isolated in the world. There is not a single major ally of the United States of America that would dare send a troop to Vietnam, and so the only friends that we have now are a few client-nations like Taiwan, Thailand, South Korea, and a few others. ' This is where we are. "Mankind must put an end to war or war will put an end to mankind," and the best way to start is to put an end to war in Vietnam, because if it continues, we will inevitably come to the point of confronting China which could lead the whole world to nuclear annihilation. ' It is no longer a choice, my friends, between violence and nonviolence. It is either nonviolence or nonexistence. And the alternative to disarmament, the alternative to a greater suspension of nuclear tests, the alternative to strengthening the United Nations and thereby disarming the whole world, may well be a civilization plunged into the abyss of annihilation, and our earthly habitat would be transformed into an inferno that even the mind of Dante could not imagine. ' While we are busy chasing through the deserts of western Iraq after Sunni Arab Iraqis who don't want us in their country, the important challenges facing the world are going unadressed. In particular, global warming will require substantial resources, which we won't have if we borrow $400 billion a year to pay for an Iraq War that seems to mainly produce burned out cars. The Inferno of which Dr. King warned might indeed be hotter than Dante could have imagined. There are so many revolutions through which we are sleeping. posted by Juan @ 1/15/2007 06:34:00 AM 0 comments * ================================================================ NY Transfer News Collective * A Service of Blythe Systems Since 1985 - Information for the Rest of Us Search Archives: http://olm.blythe-systems.com/htdig/search.html List Archives: http://olm.blythe-systems.com/pipermail/nytr/ Subscribe: http://olm.blythe-systems.com/mailman/listinfo/nytr ================================================================ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFFq6Yxiz2i76ou9wQRAuSKAJ9jgSvBLhTzYhuFFCKd8B2myAJY6wCfdgKW HI+u29Eon6dMSc/tNFy+vv8= =KbCU -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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]]> Mon, 15 Jan 2007 08:16:19 PST http://www.nnseek.com/e/talk.religion.christian.roman-catholic/why_catholics_never_witness_the_gospel_42953230t.html http://www.nnseek.com/e/talk.religion.christian.roman-catholic/why_catholics_never_witness_the_gospel_42953230t.html

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]]> Sat, 13 Jan 2007 17:23:09 PST http://www.nnseek.com/e/talk.religion.christian.roman-catholic/the_venezuelan_revolution_is_irreversible_chavez_42930446t.html http://www.nnseek.com/e/talk.religion.christian.roman-catholic/the_venezuelan_revolution_is_irreversible_chavez_42930446t.html http://www.plenglish.com The Venezuelan Revolution Is Irreversible: Chavez Caracas, Jan 13 (Prensa Latina) President Hugo Chavez reiterated on Saturday there is no return from the Venezuelan Revolution, and called all citizens to work to improve it, extend it, and consolidate it. In his annual spoken message to the nation from the parliamentary headquarters, Chavez held that they are building a praiseworthy and true democracy in the South American country. He also warned that if the opposition leads the nation to a confrontation, the majority's willingness will teach it another lesson. The oligarchy should compare, but in relation to facts, instead of being distorting the truth. "We will see the results, the truth and the majority's willingness will prevail," he asserted. Chavez said the opposition has clumsily began to carry out a campaign after the changes to be implemented in the country were announced, based on lies that would not bare, not even a hint of truth. In this reference, he said those groups use their newspapers and television stations, and protest against nothing, thus they will fall off the edge. Strengthening the revolutionary process headed by the president, Venezuela is at the threshold of a new age, which is marked by social changes. hr iom acl PL-22 * ================================================================ NY Transfer News Collective * A Service of Blythe Systems Since 1985 - Information for the Rest of Us Search Archives: http://olm.blythe-systems.com/htdig/search.html List Archives: http://olm.blythe-systems.com/pipermail/nytr/ Subscribe: http://olm.blythe-systems.com/mailman/listinfo/nytr ================================================================ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFFqWD3iz2i76ou9wQRAsiBAKCTuNU2bGHS3DMk/3RbPGq3mXOEAACeJmv/ WnTrUzmV3D9jvaF71ds55bo= =Z9Lr -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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]]> Sat, 13 Jan 2007 14:44:53 PST http://www.nnseek.com/e/talk.religion.christian.roman-catholic/why_catholics_never_witness_the_gospel_42818318t.html http://www.nnseek.com/e/talk.religion.christian.roman-catholic/why_catholics_never_witness_the_gospel_42818318t.html home.com> wrote: >witnessing is the act of telling to people of the glorious works of >God... to plant and water the seed of the gospel to the unsaved... >teaching the unsaved the way of Biblical salvation. > >witnessing is something the true believer enjoys to do... he looks >always for an occasion to bring God's Word into a conversation hoping >that the lost soul will pass out of death into life by the power of >God through the gospel he's so eager to tell about. he's not ashamed >of the gospel of Christ for it is the power of God unto salvation as >the Apostle Paul writes in Romans 1:16 > >this is never the case in Catholicism. It is the case quite often. Maybe you should get to know more Catholics. >in fact, according to the Catechism of the RCC the person in the pew >is too stupid to interpret the Scriptures on his own... note this >excerpt from the RC catechism : > >" The task of interpreting the Word of God authentically has been >entrusted SOLELY to the Magisterium of the Church, that is, to the >Pope and to the bishops in communion with him. " And where do you think most Protestant teachings come from? 1) they were "grandfathered" in from Roman Catholic teachings 2) interpretations of Protestant leaders 3) pastors. Our belief systems are handed down. We do not invent them ourselves. >only the select few are allowed to interpret the Scripture... never >the man in the pew How about this "man in the pew"? Maybe some of these questions should have been asked before your posted: 1) Does the "man in the pew" have access to the original texts of what is today known as, "The Holy Bible"? 2) If the "man in the pew" does, then can "man in the pew" read those texts in their original languages? 3) Does the "man in the pew" have enough historical knowledge to understand the time they were written and what is being discussed? 4) Does the "man in the pew" understand Judaism enough to catch the Jewish references? >... sounds like a middle-eastern approach. Not even close when you consider that a Middle Eastern approach would be for man to seek out "god" on his own. >even Peter, the apostle credited with going on the Rome and starting >Catholicism, which, the apostle Paul says never happened Where does he say that? >neither the man in the pew nor the leaders in Rome and >in all parts in between witness the gospel. Witnessing the Gospel is as much living the life as it is talking the talk - actually more so. Anyone can talk the talk, but to live what you believe day in and day out is the harder of the two. Your actions are always the best witness there can ever be. >the unsaved masses are >brought into submission to the pope Why would you assume they were unsaved? > just like the islamic is brought >into submission to Mohammed. Better brush up on your Islam. Islam's submission is to God, not Mohammed. Mohammed was a honored prophet. Unlike our culture they to not allow people to make fun of their prophet without comment.

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]]> Sat, 13 Jan 2007 05:47:49 PST http://www.nnseek.com/e/talk.religion.christian.roman-catholic/behold_the_lamb_of_god_who_takes_away_the_sin_of_the_42814990t.html http://www.nnseek.com/e/talk.religion.christian.roman-catholic/behold_the_lamb_of_god_who_takes_away_the_sin_of_the_42814990t.html

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]]> Sat, 13 Jan 2007 05:27:06 PST http://www.nnseek.com/e/talk.religion.christian.roman-catholic/even_the_catholics_believe_in_and_preach_limited_atonement_42814478t.html http://www.nnseek.com/e/talk.religion.christian.roman-catholic/even_the_catholics_believe_in_and_preach_limited_atonement_42814478t.html

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