> Noel Friesen wrote:
>

>> It's a fair reading. I'm just working through the implcations. I'm
>> trying to figure out why drugs are proscribed within buddhism while other
>> mind-alteration methods are recommended. Does it all depend on context
>> or are there other reasons? In sesshin the methods used are related to
>> brainwashing but people come in voluntarily, can leave voluntarily as
>> well and the only thing they're getting the participants to do is to
>> awaken so it's okay. In another context the same techniques can be used
>> very maliciously.

>
> So both drugs and meditation are mind-altering methods? Perhaps. But
> assigning a category label does not make them eqivalents for all
> purposes - some of which may matter depending on you outlook.
>
> For example, tigers and kittens are properly categorized within the cat
> family, but in looking for a family pet, tigers may not be a viable
> choice. ...

> "Lawson English" wrote in message
> news:v9RPh.286890$Ju2.91237@newsfe16.lga...

>> buddhapest wrote:

>>> "Lawson English" wrote in message
>>> news:qYQPh.286885$Ju2.254873@newsfe16.lga...

>>>> buddhapest wrote:

>>>>> "Lawson English" wrote in message
>>>>> news:M%%LPh.59094$mJ1.38583@newsfe22.lga...

>>>>>> buddhapest wrote:

>>>>>>> "Lawson English" wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:ijIPh.14943$Ng1.2264@newsfe19.lga...

>>>>>>>> buddhapest wrote:
>>>>>>>> [...]

>>>>>>>>> same result. jack kornfield, a spiritual
>>>>>>>>> author says samadhi hits him sometimes
>>>>>>>>> when he's driving and it makes it difficult
>>>>>>>>> to drive. i don't think i'd need to make a
>>>>>>>>> distinction between someone asleep at
>>>>>>>>> the wheel or in samadhi trance. ...

> Noel Friesen wrote:
>

>> "Robert Epstein" yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:S%%FPh.3072$i93.648@trnddc05...
>>

>>>Charles E Hardwidge wrote:
>>>
>>>

>>>>>I wouldn't say that every enlightenment claimant who has reactive
>>>>>tendencies is necessarily a "phony." They may just have a more
>>>>>difficult
>>>>>path than some others. I think you may be seeing this subject in terms
>>>>>that are too black and white.

>>>>
>>>>
>>>>This is what I've been thinking. My understanding is that
>>>>"enlightenment"
>>>>can occur, while issues remain. A problem with self-styled "testing" is ...

>
> If one keeps relying on drugs they don't develop the personal muscle to
> sustain their own insight. It is imposed perceptually and risks causing
> the person to think

> which is the most superficial aspect though the most tantalizing.

> On Apr 1, 4:03 am, Lawson English wrote:

>> godszen wrote:

>>> buddhapest wrote;

>>>> in kriya yoga distinction is made
>>>> to 9 different discernible levels
>>>> of samadhi. deeper levels would
>>>> make it difficult to perform any
>>>> activity.

>>> I know I had some difficult times (not always though)
>>> I remember sitting in my computer chair, it felt like there was a
>>> 10,000 lbs weight on top of my mind, holding me mentally still. All I
>>> could do was to mentally relax and not fight. I couldn't even open my
>>> eyes.
>>> For days or weeks it seemed like I was half asleep/ half awake all the
>>> time. I couldn't seem to wake all the way up, and had trouble falling
>>> asleep.
>>> I couldn't remember anything. I'd go to the grocery store and couldn't
>>> remember what to buy, then walk outside and couldn't find my car.
>>> (this happened several times) ...

> buddhapest wrote:

>>
>> "Lawson English" wrote in message
>> news:4UQPh.286882$Ju2.62542@newsfe16.lga...

>>> buddhapest wrote:

>>>> "godszen" yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:1175412981.385775.222780@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...

>>>>> buddhapest wrote;

>>>>>> in kriya yoga distinction is made
>>>>>> to 9 different discernible levels
>>>>>> of samadhi. deeper levels would
>>>>>> make it difficult to perform any
>>>>>> activity.

>>>>> I know I had some difficult times (not always though)
>>>>>
>>>>> I remember sitting in my computer chair, it felt like there was a
>>>>> 10,000 lbs weight on top of my mind, holding me mentally still. All

>

>
> Remember what the Buddha says above: "just as this
> man does a deed that would be experienced in a certain
> way, so does he experience its consequences". The part
> in asterisks: "just as this man does a deed *that would be
> experienced in a certain way*, so does he experience its
> consequences" ushers in the exceptions: as one
> experiences one's experience (sorry for the pleonasm) in
> a spacious, unconstrained manner, deed dissipates into
> thin air so to speak and doesn't know how to find its way
> back to one to deliver its return.
>

>
> Dave K wrote:
>

>> It's not one billionth as bad as behavior that can be excused for one
>> "outside of norms and standards."

>
> Fernando Tola and Carmen Dragonetti, "Buddhism
> and Justification of Violence", Hakke-Bunka Kenkyu,
> No. 27, March 2001, 63-100 has plenty of materials
> on the topic in the title of the article. They, 90,
> mention a sutra preserved in Chinese, T, III, 161b-162a,
> and resume it thus:
>
> "a Bodhisattva who travels in company of 500 persons;
> they reach a road infested by robbers. The robbers send
> one of them to spy the group. The robber recognizes the
> Bodhisattva as one of his relatives and as such informs
> him about the danger that threatens the caravan and
> urges him to escape without informing his travel ...

> It's not one billionth as bad as behavior that can be excused for one
> "outside of norms and standards."