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Author: Christopher InghamChristopher Ingham Date: Mar 25, 2008 18:05
This new thread is an attempt to stimulate a discussion in the area
of
ancient history, as the threads in this NG recently seem to have been
overwhelmingly about religious, mythological, and supernatural
topics.
An offhand remark of mine in another thread, "The Middle Ages is not
particularly well-known as a period with a keen interest in classical
antiquity," was vehemently disputed by a medievalist. I still
maintain
that the preserved corpus of ancient literature, apart from that of
early
Christian writers and such philosophical treatises that might be
applied to theology, were on the whole ignored until the revival of
classical learning which commenced in the High Middle Ages.
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Author: roger.pearseroger.pearse Date: Mar 27, 2008 15:59
On 25 Mar, 17:05, Christopher Ingham comcast.net>
wrote:> An offhand remark of mine in another thread, "The Middle Ages is not
> particularly well-known as a period with a keen interest in classical
> antiquity," was vehemently disputed by a medievalist. I still
> maintain that the preserved corpus of ancient literature, apart from that of
> early Christian writers and such philosophical treatises that might be
> applied to theology, were on the whole ignored until the revival of
> classical learning which commenced in the High Middle Ages.
Are we using 'middle ages' to include the Dark Ages? If so, I feel
this is particularly awkward here.
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Author: Larry SwainLarry Swain Date: Mar 27, 2008 23:16
> On 25 Mar, 17:05, Christopher Ingham comcast.net>
> wrote:
> >>An offhand remark of mine in another thread, "The Middle Ages is not
>>particularly well-known as a period with a keen interest in classical
>>antiquity," was vehemently disputed by a medievalist. I still
>>maintain that the preserved corpus of ancient literature, apart from that of
>>early Christian writers and such philosophical treatises that might be
>>applied to theology, were on the whole ignored until the revival of
>>classical learning which commenced in the High Middle Ages.
>
>
> Are we using 'middle ages' to include the Dark Ages? If so, I feel
> this is particularly awkward here.
>
> We're discussing the Latin west, where the culture collapsed,
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Author: Martin EdwardsMartin Edwards Date: Mar 28, 2008 09:28
> On 25 Mar, 17:05, Christopher Ingham comcast.net>
> wrote:>> An offhand remark of mine in another thread, "The Middle Ages is not
>> particularly well-known as a period with a keen interest in classical
>> antiquity," was vehemently disputed by a medievalist. I still
>> maintain that the preserved corpus of ancient literature, apart from that of
>> early Christian writers and such philosophical treatises that might be
>> applied to theology, were on the whole ignored until the revival of
>> classical learning which commenced in the High Middle Ages.
>
> Are we using 'middle ages' to include the Dark Ages? If so, I feel
> this is particularly awkward here.
>
> We're discussing the Latin west, where the culture collapsed, not all
> at once, but over a period of centuries, to a low point in the
> Merovingian period. The importance of Charlemagne can hardly be over-
> estimated, in that the recovery began under him. But the recovery was
> still very weak, throughout the Dark Ages. Things have to wait until
> wealth and population have recovered enough that there can be people ...
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Author: Martin EdwardsMartin Edwards Date: Mar 28, 2008 09:30
Larry Swain wrote:
>> On 25 Mar, 17:05, Christopher Ingham comcast.net>
>> wrote:
>>>>> An offhand remark of mine in another thread, "The Middle Ages is not
>>> particularly well-known as a period with a keen interest in classical
>>> antiquity," was vehemently disputed by a medievalist. I still
>>> maintain that the preserved corpus of ancient literature, apart from
>>> that of
>>> early Christian writers and such philosophical treatises that might be
>>> applied to theology, were on the whole ignored until the revival of
>>> classical learning which commenced in the High Middle Ages.
>>
>>
>> Are we using 'middle ages' to include the Dark Ages? If so, I feel
>> this is particularly awkward here.
>>
>> We're discussing the Latin west, where the culture collapsed,
> ...
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Author: roger.pearseroger.pearse Date: Mar 28, 2008 10:38
On 27 Mar, 22:16, Larry Swain poetic.com> wrote:>> We're discussing the Latin west, where the culture collapsed,
>
> I wouldn't say "collapsed". Transformed, yes, changed because a new
> culture was being added in, and we have a period where the syntheses of
> German, ROman, and Christian is being worked out. But we continue to
> have production of literature, the construction of buildings, etc.
I'm very sorry, but I don't agree with this idea at all. Consider: if
you or I went from living in our current mansions to living in mud
huts, in fear of our lives, then would we describe that as a
transformation? It was a collapse, in my humble opinion.
I note that none of those who disagree with me choose to experience
this process, in the contemporary world, in modern Rhodesia
(appropriately renamed Zimbabwe). I wonder if the Rhodesians refer to
starvation as 'transformation'?
(Not having a go at *you*, you understand, but revisionism to airbrush
away a disaster like the Roman collapse is a bit awful).
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Author: roger.pearseroger.pearse Date: Mar 28, 2008 11:57
On 28 Mar, 08:28, Martin Edwards yahoo.com> wrote:>> On 25 Mar, 17:05, Christopher Ingham comcast.net>
>> wrote:>>> An offhand remark of mine in another thread, "The Middle Ages is not
>>> particularly well-known as a period with a keen interest in classical
>>> antiquity," was vehemently disputed by a medievalist. I still
>>> maintain that the preserved corpus of ancient literature, apart from that of
>>> early Christian writers and such philosophical treatises that might be
>>> applied to theology, were on the whole ignored until the revival of
>>> classical learning which commenced in the High Middle Ages.
>
>> Are we using 'middle ages' to include the Dark Ages? If so, I feel
>> this is particularly awkward here.
>
>> We're discussing the Latin west, where the culture collapsed, not all
>> at once, but over a period of centuries, to a low point in the
>> Merovingian period. The importance of Charlemagne can hardly be over-
>> estimated, in that the recovery began under him. But the recovery was
>> still very weak, throughout the Dark Ages. Things have to wait until ...
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Author: roger.pearseroger.pearse Date: Mar 28, 2008 22:24
On 28 Mar, 09:38, "roger.pea...@ googlemail.com"
googlemail.com> wrote:> On 27 Mar, 22:16, Larry Swain poetic.com> wrote:
>>>> Worth bearing in mind that Greek was known at the court of
>>> Charlemagne.
>
>> And seventh century Canterbury....and the court of Charles the
>> Bald....and in Ravenna and Italy....
>
> You know, I'm sure, why Greek was known at Ravenna in the early Dark
> Ages; because the damn place was under Greek rule. Ditto for Magna
> Graecia. How is this an index of the general knowledge of Greek in
> the period? You say that Greek was known in seventh century
> Canterbury. What you mean, I'm sure, is that a Greek was appointed
> archbishop in that period, and did a bit of teaching. It is horrible,
> horrible, to write as if this was equivalent to the knowledge of Greek
> in antiquity.
>
> There are Greek books listed in medieval catalogues with "old and ...
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Author: Martin EdwardsMartin Edwards Date: Mar 29, 2008 11:39
> On 28 Mar, 08:28, Martin Edwards yahoo.com> wrote:>>> On 25 Mar, 17:05, Christopher Ingham comcast.net>
>>> wrote:>>>> An offhand remark of mine in another thread, "The Middle Ages is not
>>>> particularly well-known as a period with a keen interest in classical
>>>> antiquity," was vehemently disputed by a medievalist. I still
>>>> maintain that the preserved corpus of ancient literature, apart from that of
>>>> early Christian writers and such philosophical treatises that might be
>>>> applied to theology, were on the whole ignored until the revival of
>>>> classical learning which commenced in the High Middle Ages.
>>> Are we using 'middle ages' to include the Dark Ages? If so, I feel
>>> this is particularly awkward here.
>>> We're discussing the Latin west, where the culture collapsed, not all
>>> at once, but over a period of centuries, to a low point in the
>>> Merovingian period. The importance of Charlemagne can hardly be over-
>>> estimated, in that the recovery began under him. But the recovery was
>>> still very weak, throughout the Dark Ages. Things have to wait until
>>> wealth and population have recovered enough that there can be people ...
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Author: roger.pearseroger.pearse Date: Mar 29, 2008 13:47
On 29 Mar, 10:39, Martin Edwards yahoo.com> wrote:>> On 28 Mar, 08:28, Martin Edwards yahoo.com> wrote:>>>> On 25 Mar, 17:05, Christopher Ingham comcast.net>
>>>> wrote:>>>>> An offhand remark of mine in another thread, "The Middle Ages is not
>>>>> particularly well-known as a period with a keen interest in classical
>>>>> antiquity," was vehemently disputed by a medievalist. I still
>>>>> maintain that the preserved corpus of ancient literature, apart from that of
>>>>> early Christian writers and such philosophical treatises that might be
>>>>> applied to theology, were on the whole ignored until the revival of
>>>>> classical learning which commenced in the High Middle Ages.
>>>> Are we using 'middle ages' to include the Dark Ages? If so, I feel
>>>> this is particularly awkward here.
>>>> We're discussing the Latin west, where the culture collapsed, not all
>>>> at once, but over a period of centuries, to a low point in the
>>>> Merovingian period. The importance of Charlemagne can hardly be over-
>>>> estimated, in that the recovery began under him. But the recovery was
>>>> still very weak, throughout the Dark Ages. Things have to wait until ...
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