> Chapter 17 - Distinctions in Benefits
> At that time the Buddha said to the bodhisattva and mahasattva
> Maitreya: "Ajita, if there are living beings who, on hearing that the
> life span of the Buddha is of such long duration, are able to believe
> and understand it even for a moment, the benefits they gain thereby
> will be without limit or measure.
> "Suppose there are good men or good women who, for the sake of
> anuttara-samyak-sambodhi, over a period of eight hundred thousand
> million nayutas of kalpas practise the five paramitas-- the paramitas
> of dana (almsgiving), shila (keeping of the precepts), kshanti
> (forbearance), virya (assidousness) and dhyana (meditation), the
> paramita of prajna being omitted--the benefits they obtain will not
> measure up to even a hundredth part, a thousandth part, a hundred,
> thousand, ten thousand, millionth part of the benefits mentioned
> previously.
> "Indeed it is beyond the power of calculation, simile or parable to
> convey the comparison. For good men who have gained such benefits as
> those (mentioned previously) to fall back without reaching the goal of
> anuttara-samyak-sambodhi is utterly unimaginable."
> [ If you believe the One inside you is eternal, your benefits are
> great, greater than those who ciultivate self and not knowing the One
> inside them.]
> "Furthermore, Ajita, if there is someone who, hearing of the long
> duration of the Buddha's life span, can understand the import of such
> words, the benefits that such a person acquires will be without limit
> or measure, able to awaken in him the unsurpassed wisdom of the Thus
> Come One. How much more so, then, if far and wide a person listens to
> this sutra or causes others to listen to it, embraces it himself or
> causes others to embrace it, copies it himself or causes others to copy
> it, or presents flowers, incense, necklace, streamers, banners, silken
> canopies, fragrant oil or lamps of butter oil as offerings to the sutra
> rolls. The benefits of such a person will be immeasurable, boundless,
> able to inspire in him the wisdom that embraces all species.
> "Ajita, if good men and good women, hearing me describe the great
> length of my life span, in the depths of their mind believe and
> understand, then they will see the Buddha constantly abiding on Mount
> Gridhrakuta, with the great bodhisattvas and multitude of voice-hearers
> surrounding him, preaching the Dharma. They will also see this saha
> world, its ground of lapis lazuli level and well ordered, the Jambunala
> gold bordering its eight highways, the rows of jeweled trees, the
> terraces, towers and observatories all made of jewels, and all the
> multitude of bodhisattvas who live in their midst. [same as in
> Visualising Sutra] If there are those who are able to see such things,
> you should know that it is a mark of their deep faith and
> understanding." (rou you neng ru shi guan zhe. dang zhi shi wei shen
> xin jie xiang [If they are able to visualise like this, you should know
> it is a deep faith, understanding image.])
> "Again, if after the Thus Come One has entered extinction there are
> those who hear this sutra and do not slander or speack ill of it but
> feel joy in their hearts, you should know that this is a sign that they
> have already shown deep faith and understanding. How much more in the
> case of persons who read, recite and embrace this sutra! Such persons
> are in effect receiving the Thus Come One on the crown of their heads."
> (si ren ze wei ding dai ru lai. [Such persons are in effect, the crowns
> of their head, carry (or wear) Thus Come Ones.])
> "Ajita, these good men and good women need not for my sake erect towers
> and temples or build monks quarters or make the four kinds of offerings
> to the community of monks. Why? Because these good men and good women,
> in receiving, embracing, reading and reciting this sutra, have already
> erected towers, constructed monks quarters, and given alms to the
> community of monks. It should be consideredthat they have erected
> towers adorned with the seven treasures for the relics of the Buddha,
> broad at the base and tapering at the top, reaching to the Brahma
> heaven, hung with banners, canopies, and a multitude of jeweled bells,
> with flowers, incense, necklaces, powdered incense, paste incense,
> incense for burning, many kinds of drums, musical instruments, pipes,
> harps, and various types of dances and diversions, and with wonderful
> voices that sing and intense hymns of praise. It is as though they have
> already offered alms for immeasurable thousands, ten thousands,
> millions of kalpas."
> [ If you believe the One inside you is Thus Come One or Buddha, you
> need not have to pray to Buddha statues, ancestors, bow to corpses in
> coffins because you already know you are Buddha.]
> "Ajita, if after I have entered extinction there are those who hear
> this sutra and can accept and uphold it, copy it themselves or cause
> others to copy it, then it may be considered that they have already
> erected monks quarters, or used red sandalwood to construct thirty-two
> halls, as tall as eight tala trees, lofty, spacious and beautifully
> adorned to accommodate hundreds and thousands of monks. Gardens,
> groves, pools, lakes, exercise grounds, caves for meditation, clothing,
> food, drink, beds, matting, medicines, and all kinds of utensils for
> comfort fill them, and these monks quraters and halls number in the
> hundreds, thousands, ten thousands, millions, and indeed are
> immeasurable in number. All these are presented before me as alms for
> me and the community of monks." [ Merits of believing the One inside
> you and meditating on the One at the nose bridge are more than all
> materials donations, charity works etc.]
> "So I say, if after the Thus Come One enters extinction there are those
> who accept, uphold, read and recite this sutra or preach it to others,
> who copy it themselves or cause others to copy it, or who offer alms to
> the sutra rolls, then they need not erect towers or temples or build
> monks quarters or offer alms to the community of monks. And how much
> more is this true of those who are able to embrace this sutra and at
> the same time dispense alms, keep the precepts, practise forbearance,
> and display diligence, single-mindedness and wisdom! Their virtue will
> be uppermost, immeasurable and boundless, as the open sky, east, west,
> north and south, in the four intermediate directions and up and down,
> is immeasurable and boundless. The blessings of such persons will be as
> immeasurable and boundless as this, and such persons will quickly
> attain the wisdom that embraces all species.
> "If a person reads, recites, accepts and upholds this sutra or preaches
> it to others, if he copies it himself or causes others to copy it; and
> if he can erect towers, build monks quarters, offer alms and praise to
> the community of voice-hearers; if he can employ hundreds, thousands,
> ten thousands, millions of modes of praise to praise the merits of the
> bodhisattvas; and if for the sake of others he employs various causes
> and conditions and accords with principle in explaining and preaching
> this Lotus Sutra; and if he can observe the precepts with purity, keep
> company with those who are gentle and peaceful, be forbearing and
> without anger, firm in intent and thought, constantly prizing the
> practice of sitting in meditation, attaining various states of profound
> meditation, diligent and courageous, mastering all the good doctrines,
> keen in faculties and wisdom, good at answering difficult
> questions--Ajita, if after I have entered extinction there are good men
> and good women who accepts, uphold, read and recite this sutra and have
> good merits such as these, you should know that they have already
> proceeded to the place of practice and are drawing near to
> anuttara-samyak-sambodhi as they sit beneath the tree of the way.
> Ajita, wherever these good men and good women sit or stand or circle
> about in exercise, there one should erect a tower, and all heavenly and
> human beings should offer alms to it as they would to the tower of the
> Buddha."
> [No need to sit beneath the Bodhi tree. This is a symbol for our
> eye-brows, below there at the nose bridge is the seat of Buddha. It is
> here we need to pray, not statues in temples, if you understand the
> meaning.]
> dang zhi shi ren. yi qu dao chang. jin e nou duo luo san miao san pu
> ti. zuo dao shu xia. e yi duo. shi shan nan zi shan nu ren. ruo zuo ruo
> li ruo xing chu. ci zheng bian ying qi ta. yi qie tian ren jie ying
> gong yang ru fo zhi ta. [ You should know this people have already
> reached the the Way's (Tao) site and are near to
> anuttara-samyak-sambodhi, sit below the Way's (Tao) tree. Ajita, these
> good men and good women, wherever they sit, or stand or walk about,
> there should one erect a tower, so that all heavenly people should
> offer alms to it as if it is the tower of Buddha.]
> [ The structure of Chinese characters can have different meaning. Tao's
> site should be the Mark on our forehead. Tao's tree should be our
> eye-brows, like the life giving tree in Garden of Eden. Buddha's tower
> can be our nose and we should gaze at the nose tip as if we are praying
> to the Buddha's tower.]
>
>
> The Cynic wrote:

>> If you have no say, then don't say!
>>
>> "Alex" yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:1157246777.375836.54080@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...

>>> You can do your comment. I have no say.
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Chapter 14 - Peaceful Practices
>>> [ This chapter teaches some of the principles of cultivation. A must
>>> read chapter. Learn some precepts and means of conduct.]
>>>
>>> Chapter 15 - Emerging From The Earth
>>> [ This chapter talks about a great number of bodhisattvas emerging from
>>> the earth to the mid-air of the assembly. This sounds ridiculous and
>>> illogic. They are the total number of Ones in living beings and outside
>>> like the heavenly beings, ghosts, demons etc etc. They are the same as
>>> the One in Sakyamuni Buddha. It is called Thus Come One. So it is logic
>>> because Thus Come One and the Ones are the same Ones. They can be
>>> called Gods, Buddhas, Tao etc etc. Actually It has no name.]
>>>
>>> Chapter 16 - The Life Span of the Thus Come One
>>> "You must listen carefully and hear of the Thus Come One's secret and
>>> his transcendental powers. In all the worlds the heavenly and human
>>> beings and asuras all believe that the present Sakyamuni Buddha, after
>>> leaving the palace of the Sakya, seated himself in the place of
>>> practice not far from the city of Gaya and there attained
>>> anuttara-samyak-sambodhi. But good men, it has been immeasurable,
>>> boundless hundreds, thousands, ten thousands, millions of nayutas of
>>> kalpas since I in fact attained Buddhahood."
>>>
>>> [ Try to understand, Sakyamuni Buddha was not talking about his body.
>>> He was talking about the One inside him. The one which he called Thus
>>> Come One has an Eternal Life. We can call IT Buddha or Tao or God or
>>> Allah etc. It is the same as in Taoteching. The Tao is without a name.
>>> It has no shape, no where to go or come. It has no beginning nor end.
>>> It is there even before the universe is created. It will still be there
>>> when the universe disintegrates.]
>>>
>>>
>>> Bald eagle wrote:

>>>> This sutra is obviously NOT Buddha's teaching.
>>>> Remember this.
>>>> My comment is given against the text below:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Alex" yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:1157163258.924016.185890@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...

>>>>> Read more sutras will help you. Don't stick to a few. There are more
>>>>> than 5,000 sutras around.
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> Chapter 11 - Emergence of the Treasure Tower
>>>>> If a person expounds the Law, (What is this law)
>>>>> allowing thousands, ten thousands, millions,
>>>>> immeasurable numbers of living beings
>>>>> equal to Ganges sands to become arhats
>>>>> endowed with the six transcendental powers,

>>>>
>>>> What LAW ?
>>>>
>>>>

>>>>> though one might confer such benefits,
>>>>> that would not be difficult.
>>>>> But after I (who is this?) have entered extinction
>>>>> if one can honour and embrace
>>>>> a sutra such as this one,
>>>>> that will be difficult indeed!

>>>>
>>>> Who is this ' I '.
>>>>
>>>>

>>>>> For the sake of the Buddha way (note this)
>>>>> in immeasurable numbers of lands
>>>>> from the beginning until now
>>>>> I have widely preached many sutras,
>>>>> and among them this sutra is foremost.
>>>>> If one can uphold this,
>>>>> he will be upholding the Buddha's body.(note this)

>>>>
>>>> This someone was talking about Buddha's
>>>> ways, and Buddha's body.
>>>> He obviously cannot be Buddha himself.
>>>>

>>>>> All you good men,
>>>>> after I have entered extinction
>>>>> who can accept and uphold,
>>>>> read and recite this sutra?

>>>>
>>>> What is the key points in this sutra...?
>>>> None.
>>>> He has merely asserted that this sutra
>>>> is like treasure tower, treasure mountain...
>>>> liken human as sand in the banks of the
>>>> Ganges with super power.
>>>>
>>>> He was appealing to the readers' greed, to
>>>> ther lower desires....for wealth and treasure.
>>>> This in itself is against Buddha's core teaching.
>>>>
>>>>

>>>>> Now in the presence of the Buddha
>>>>> let him come forward and speak his vow!
>>>>> This sutra is hard to uphold;
>>>>> if one can uphold it even for a short while
>>>>> I will surely rejoice
>>>>> and so will the other Buddhas.

>>>>
>>>> He liken himself to be a Buddha...Is he a
>>>> Buddha ? What proof ?
>>>>

>>>>> A person who can do this
>>>>> wins the admiration of the Buddhas.
>>>>> This is what is meant by velour,
>>>>> this is what is meant by deligence.
>>>>> This is what is called observing the precepts
>>>>> and practising dhuta.
>>>>> This way (No details given) one will quickly attain
>>>>> the unsurpassed Buddha way.

>>>>
>>>> What way....Buddha's core teaching...
>>>> or his mysterious way ?
>>>>

>>>>> And if in future existences
>>>>> one can read and uphold this sutra,
>>>>> he will be a true son of the Buddha, (Fo Zi)

>>>>
>>>> Buddha NEVER teach existence beyond
>>>> the present life.
>>>> Here he deviated from Buddha's teaching.
>>>>
>>>>

>>>>> dwelling in a land spotless and good. (saying the One in us)

>>>>
>>>> A land spotless and good !?
>>>> Is this paradise. Then he deviated from Buddha'
>>>> teaching again. Buddha did not promise Heaven
>>>> or hell.
>>>>

>>>>> If after the Buddha has passed into extinction
>>>>> one can understand the meaning of this sutra,
>>>>> he will be the eyes of the world
>>>>> for heavenly and human beings.

>>>>
>>>> Here, he implied that Buddha has life after
>>>> death.
>>>> He deviated from Buddha's teaching again.
>>>> Buddha did not promise life after death.
>>>> Here, he also preached, about heaven.
>>>> This again is not Buddha's teaching.
>>>>

>>>>> If in that fearful age
>>>>> one can preach this sutra for even a moment,
>>>>> he will deserve to receive alms
>>>>> from all heavenly and human beings.

>>>>
>>>> Receiving alms ? Who should recieve the
>>>> alms...the monk himself, or the temple...?
>>>>
>>>>

>>>>>
>>>>> [ The moral of this chapter about the Many Treasures Thus Come One
>>>>> is
>>>>> to distract readers. If you read Visualising Sutra, the description
>>>>> there of the events and the first 13th visualisations are about the
>>>>> same pattern. First is Holy Eagle Peak is to remind us of our
>>>>> eye-brows. Ten directions, Spotless land etc are talking about the
>>>>> Mark
>>>>> on our forehead. The Treasure Tower is imaginary or we can take it
>>>>> as
>>>>> our nose. 7 is to remind us of the 7 holes on our face, 2 eyes, 2
>>>>> nostrils, 1 mouth and 2 ears. Ten, thousand, million and billion are
>>>>> figurative and can denote zero.
>>>>> Many sutras have this same pattern and we should just go over them
>>>>> like
>>>>> nothing. If you treat them as what they are, then you are absorbed
>>>>> into
>>>>> the sutras. We have to turn the sutras, not the other way round. A
>>>>> sutra may contain a million words, but the secret is in a small
>>>>> portion
>>>>> of words.]
>>>>> --------------------------

>>>>
>>>> Remember, this sutra was a record of
>>>> the recitation by Bodhisattva. (Kuan Yin?)
>>>>
>>>> My comment are given below against the verse.
>>>> -------------------------------------

>>>>> Chapter 12 - Devadatta
>>>>> At that time Bodhisattva Wisdom Accumulated recited these verses of
>>>>> praise:
>>>>> Of great wisdom and virtue, brave and stalwart,
>>>>> you have converted and saved immeasurable beings.
>>>>> Now those in this great assembly,
>>>>> as well as I myself, have all seen them.

>>>>
>>>> His praise is for Buddha ?
>>>>

>>>>> You expound the principles of the true entity,
>>>>> open up the Law of the single vehicle, (what is this ?)
>>>>> broadly guiding the many beings,
>>>>> causing them quickly to attain bodhi.

>>>>
>>>> Is this about Buddha's teaching ?..causing
>>>> human to fully understand human suffering
>>>> and the way to stop suffering ....or something
>>>> else ? Not specified here.
>>>>
>>>>

>>>>> Manjushri said, "When I was in the ocean I constantly expounded the
>>>>> Lotus Sutra of the Wonderful Law alone."
>>>>>

>>>>

>>>>> [ The moral of this chapter is that all living beings will achieve
>>>>> salvation.

>>>>
>>>> Salvation...what salvation ? Going to heaven, eternal life ???
>>>> Buddha's NEVER promise heaven or eternal life.
>>>>
>>>> If by salvation, you mean knowing human suffering
>>>> and the way the stop suffering....I fully agree.
>>>>
>>>>

>>>>> There are flaws in this chapter. First is the previous life
>>>>> of Devadatta as a seer who expounded the Lotus Sutra to the previous
>>>>> life of Sakyamuni Buddha, when he was a king who gave up throne to
>>>>> cultivate the Way. ( I must add that ...to seek the knowledge

>>>> to stop human sufferings)
>>>>
>>>> Buddha giving up a life of luxury, power, family loves,..to
>>>> seek the way to stop human suffering.
>>>> This is true.
>>>>
>>>> But previous life of Buddha...previous life of
>>>> Devadatta....
>>>> Eternal life, rebirth are NOT the teachings of Buddha.
>>>>
>>>>

>>>>> If you take the teaching of the sutra, he (who) then
>>>>> should be Buddha first because he was well versed in the sutra.

>>>>
>>>> It is stated very clearly at the beginning, it is the
>>>> record of Bodhisattva teaching . It is NOT Buddha's
>>>> words nor his teaching.
>>>>
>>>>

>>>>> Second is Manjushri who expounded the Lotus Sutra to beings in the
>>>>> ocean. If he can expound the sutra before Sakyamuni expounded this
>>>>> sutra, his position should be a Buddha not a Bodhisattva. I take it
>>>>> as
>>>>> a parable not true story.

>>>>
>>>> This story is full of errors if he got the chronological
>>>> sequence totally mixed up. If one part is all mixed
>>>> up, what is there to say the rest is right ?
>>>>
>>>>

>>>>> Third is the dragon girl of 8 years old who transformed into a man
>>>>> then
>>>>> a Buddha in an instance. Logic is Manjushri should be Buddha first
>>>>> before the girl because he expounded the Lotus Sutra to her in the
>>>>> ocean.

>>>>
>>>> Again, it is a STORY....fiction, make-belief.
>>>> Not about Buddha who was a human being,
>>>> with flesh and blood.
>>>>
>>>> Comment:
>>>> Buddhism is NOT like other religions that will
>>>> not tolerate the concepts or teaching of others.
>>>> Buddhists can read and practise what is taught
>>>> in these sutra. (even pray to the God of fertility,
>>>> the Penis)
>>>> BUT....always remember, these sutra are NOT the
>>>> teaching of Buddha. These sutra should be clearly
>>>> differentiated and clearly demarcated....Must not
>>>> taken to be Buddha's teaching.
>>>>

>>>>> Bald eagle wrote:

>>>>>> "Alex" yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:1157077739.228704.262400@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...

>>>>>>>I am not interested in arguing whether the sutra was preached by
>>>>>>>Buddha
>>>>>>> or written by other monks.I am only interested in expounding the
>>>>>>> sutra.
>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>>>>>>
>>>>>> Good,
>>>>>> This is the first step........Give credit to Buddha
>>>>>> when it was Buddha's teaching .....and give credit
>>>>>> to others when the sutras were works of other
>>>>>> monks.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This will ensure the true teachings of Buddha is
>>>>>> not mutilated, changed and altered. The spirit of his
>>>>>> core teaching should NEVER be deviated or
>>>>>> changed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Once, a deviation is not challenged, like the worship
>>>>>> of the Penis in Bangkok, others would think that
>>>>>> the nonsense were part of Buddha's teaching,
>>>>>> and would despise Buddhism.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This also apply to others deviations. Buddha did
>>>>>> not teach the worship God, life after death, the soul,
>>>>>> rebirth (all Hindu concepts). It is equally wrong to
>>>>>> attribute such teachings to Buddha. The Lotus Sutra
>>>>>> contained such teachings. It should be credited to
>>>>>> the author, the monk who wrote this sutra.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Buddhism is a very tolerant religion, .....it will tolerate
>>>>>> teachings of other religions, from Hinduism, Ancestor
>>>>>> worships, Taoism.... to be practised by its followers.
>>>>>> However, the followers must never claim that such
>>>>>> teaching and practices are the teachings of Buddha.
>>>>>> They are NOT.

>>>>>

>>>

>