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Re: Lotus Sutra chapter 17         

Group: soc.culture.hongkong · Group Profile
Author: Alex
Date: Sep 3, 2006 19:11

Chapter 17 - Distinctions in Benefits
At that time the Buddha said to the bodhisattva and mahasattva
Maitreya: "Ajita, if there are living beings who, on hearing that the
life span of the Buddha is of such long duration, are able to believe
and understand it even for a moment, the benefits they gain thereby
will be without limit or measure.
"Suppose there are good men or good women who, for the sake of
anuttara-samyak-sambodhi, over a period of eight hundred thousand
million nayutas of kalpas practise the five paramitas-- the paramitas
of dana (almsgiving), shila (keeping of the precepts), kshanti
(forbearance), virya (assidousness) and dhyana (meditation), the
paramita of prajna being omitted--the benefits they obtain will not
measure up to even a hundredth part, a thousandth part, a hundred,
thousand, ten thousand, millionth part of the benefits mentioned
previously.
"Indeed it is beyond the power of calculation, simile or parable to
convey the comparison. For good men who have gained such benefits as
those (mentioned previously) to fall back without reaching the goal of
anuttara-samyak-sambodhi is utterly unimaginable."
[ If you believe the One inside you is eternal, your benefits are
great, greater than those who ciultivate self and not knowing the One
inside them.]
"Furthermore, Ajita, if there is someone who, hearing of the long
duration of the Buddha's life span, can understand the import of such
words, the benefits that such a person acquires will be without limit
or measure, able to awaken in him the unsurpassed wisdom of the Thus
Come One. How much more so, then, if far and wide a person listens to
this sutra or causes others to listen to it, embraces it himself or
causes others to embrace it, copies it himself or causes others to copy
it, or presents flowers, incense, necklace, streamers, banners, silken
canopies, fragrant oil or lamps of butter oil as offerings to the sutra
rolls. The benefits of such a person will be immeasurable, boundless,
able to inspire in him the wisdom that embraces all species.
"Ajita, if good men and good women, hearing me describe the great
length of my life span, in the depths of their mind believe and
understand, then they will see the Buddha constantly abiding on Mount
Gridhrakuta, with the great bodhisattvas and multitude of voice-hearers
surrounding him, preaching the Dharma. They will also see this saha
world, its ground of lapis lazuli level and well ordered, the Jambunala
gold bordering its eight highways, the rows of jeweled trees, the
terraces, towers and observatories all made of jewels, and all the
multitude of bodhisattvas who live in their midst. [same as in
Visualising Sutra] If there are those who are able to see such things,
you should know that it is a mark of their deep faith and
understanding." (rou you neng ru shi guan zhe. dang zhi shi wei shen
xin jie xiang [If they are able to visualise like this, you should know
it is a deep faith, understanding image.])
"Again, if after the Thus Come One has entered extinction there are
those who hear this sutra and do not slander or speack ill of it but
feel joy in their hearts, you should know that this is a sign that they
have already shown deep faith and understanding. How much more in the
case of persons who read, recite and embrace this sutra! Such persons
are in effect receiving the Thus Come One on the crown of their heads."
(si ren ze wei ding dai ru lai. [Such persons are in effect, the crowns
of their head, carry (or wear) Thus Come Ones.])
"Ajita, these good men and good women need not for my sake erect towers
and temples or build monks quarters or make the four kinds of offerings
to the community of monks. Why? Because these good men and good women,
in receiving, embracing, reading and reciting this sutra, have already
erected towers, constructed monks quarters, and given alms to the
community of monks. It should be consideredthat they have erected
towers adorned with the seven treasures for the relics of the Buddha,
broad at the base and tapering at the top, reaching to the Brahma
heaven, hung with banners, canopies, and a multitude of jeweled bells,
with flowers, incense, necklaces, powdered incense, paste incense,
incense for burning, many kinds of drums, musical instruments, pipes,
harps, and various types of dances and diversions, and with wonderful
voices that sing and intense hymns of praise. It is as though they have
already offered alms for immeasurable thousands, ten thousands,
millions of kalpas."
[ If you believe the One inside you is Thus Come One or Buddha, you
need not have to pray to Buddha statues, ancestors, bow to corpses in
coffins because you already know you are Buddha.]
"Ajita, if after I have entered extinction there are those who hear
this sutra and can accept and uphold it, copy it themselves or cause
others to copy it, then it may be considered that they have already
erected monks quarters, or used red sandalwood to construct thirty-two
halls, as tall as eight tala trees, lofty, spacious and beautifully
adorned to accommodate hundreds and thousands of monks. Gardens,
groves, pools, lakes, exercise grounds, caves for meditation, clothing,
food, drink, beds, matting, medicines, and all kinds of utensils for
comfort fill them, and these monks quraters and halls number in the
hundreds, thousands, ten thousands, millions, and indeed are
immeasurable in number. All these are presented before me as alms for
me and the community of monks." [ Merits of believing the One inside
you and meditating on the One at the nose bridge are more than all
materials donations, charity works etc.]
"So I say, if after the Thus Come One enters extinction there are those
who accept, uphold, read and recite this sutra or preach it to others,
who copy it themselves or cause others to copy it, or who offer alms to
the sutra rolls, then they need not erect towers or temples or build
monks quarters or offer alms to the community of monks. And how much
more is this true of those who are able to embrace this sutra and at
the same time dispense alms, keep the precepts, practise forbearance,
and display diligence, single-mindedness and wisdom! Their virtue will
be uppermost, immeasurable and boundless, as the open sky, east, west,
north and south, in the four intermediate directions and up and down,
is immeasurable and boundless. The blessings of such persons will be as
immeasurable and boundless as this, and such persons will quickly
attain the wisdom that embraces all species.
"If a person reads, recites, accepts and upholds this sutra or preaches
it to others, if he copies it himself or causes others to copy it; and
if he can erect towers, build monks quarters, offer alms and praise to
the community of voice-hearers; if he can employ hundreds, thousands,
ten thousands, millions of modes of praise to praise the merits of the
bodhisattvas; and if for the sake of others he employs various causes
and conditions and accords with principle in explaining and preaching
this Lotus Sutra; and if he can observe the precepts with purity, keep
company with those who are gentle and peaceful, be forbearing and
without anger, firm in intent and thought, constantly prizing the
practice of sitting in meditation, attaining various states of profound
meditation, diligent and courageous, mastering all the good doctrines,
keen in faculties and wisdom, good at answering difficult
questions--Ajita, if after I have entered extinction there are good men
and good women who accepts, uphold, read and recite this sutra and have
good merits such as these, you should know that they have already
proceeded to the place of practice and are drawing near to
anuttara-samyak-sambodhi as they sit beneath the tree of the way.
Ajita, wherever these good men and good women sit or stand or circle
about in exercise, there one should erect a tower, and all heavenly and
human beings should offer alms to it as they would to the tower of the
Buddha."
[No need to sit beneath the Bodhi tree. This is a symbol for our
eye-brows, below there at the nose bridge is the seat of Buddha. It is
here we need to pray, not statues in temples, if you understand the
meaning.]
dang zhi shi ren. yi qu dao chang. jin e nou duo luo san miao san pu
ti. zuo dao shu xia. e yi duo. shi shan nan zi shan nu ren. ruo zuo ruo
li ruo xing chu. ci zheng bian ying qi ta. yi qie tian ren jie ying
gong yang ru fo zhi ta. [ You should know this people have already
reached the the Way's (Tao) site and are near to
anuttara-samyak-sambodhi, sit below the Way's (Tao) tree. Ajita, these
good men and good women, wherever they sit, or stand or walk about,
there should one erect a tower, so that all heavenly people should
offer alms to it as if it is the tower of Buddha.]
[ The structure of Chinese characters can have different meaning. Tao's
site should be the Mark on our forehead. Tao's tree should be our
eye-brows, like the life giving tree in Garden of Eden. Buddha's tower
can be our nose and we should gaze at the nose tip as if we are praying
to the Buddha's tower.]

The Cynic wrote:
> If you have no say, then don't say!
>
> "Alex" yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1157246777.375836.54080@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
>> You can do your comment. I have no say.
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Chapter 14 - Peaceful Practices
>> [ This chapter teaches some of the principles of cultivation. A must
>> read chapter. Learn some precepts and means of conduct.]
>>
>> Chapter 15 - Emerging From The Earth
>> [ This chapter talks about a great number of bodhisattvas emerging from
>> the earth to the mid-air of the assembly. This sounds ridiculous and
>> illogic. They are the total number of Ones in living beings and outside
>> like the heavenly beings, ghosts, demons etc etc. They are the same as
>> the One in Sakyamuni Buddha. It is called Thus Come One. So it is logic
>> because Thus Come One and the Ones are the same Ones. They can be
>> called Gods, Buddhas, Tao etc etc. Actually It has no name.]
>>
>> Chapter 16 - The Life Span of the Thus Come One
>> "You must listen carefully and hear of the Thus Come One's secret and
>> his transcendental powers. In all the worlds the heavenly and human
>> beings and asuras all believe that the present Sakyamuni Buddha, after
>> leaving the palace of the Sakya, seated himself in the place of
>> practice not far from the city of Gaya and there attained
>> anuttara-samyak-sambodhi. But good men, it has been immeasurable,
>> boundless hundreds, thousands, ten thousands, millions of nayutas of
>> kalpas since I in fact attained Buddhahood."
>>
>> [ Try to understand, Sakyamuni Buddha was not talking about his body.
>> He was talking about the One inside him. The one which he called Thus
>> Come One has an Eternal Life. We can call IT Buddha or Tao or God or
>> Allah etc. It is the same as in Taoteching. The Tao is without a name.
>> It has no shape, no where to go or come. It has no beginning nor end.
>> It is there even before the universe is created. It will still be there
>> when the universe disintegrates.]
>>
>>
>> Bald eagle wrote:
>>> This sutra is obviously NOT Buddha's teaching.
>>> Remember this.
>>> My comment is given against the text below:
>>>
>>>
>>> "Alex" yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>> news:1157163258.924016.185890@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>>>> Read more sutras will help you. Don't stick to a few. There are more
>>>> than 5,000 sutras around.
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Chapter 11 - Emergence of the Treasure Tower
>>>> If a person expounds the Law, (What is this law)
>>>> allowing thousands, ten thousands, millions,
>>>> immeasurable numbers of living beings
>>>> equal to Ganges sands to become arhats
>>>> endowed with the six transcendental powers,
>>>
>>> What LAW ?
>>>
>>>
>>>> though one might confer such benefits,
>>>> that would not be difficult.
>>>> But after I (who is this?) have entered extinction
>>>> if one can honour and embrace
>>>> a sutra such as this one,
>>>> that will be difficult indeed!
>>>
>>> Who is this ' I '.
>>>
>>>
>>>> For the sake of the Buddha way (note this)
>>>> in immeasurable numbers of lands
>>>> from the beginning until now
>>>> I have widely preached many sutras,
>>>> and among them this sutra is foremost.
>>>> If one can uphold this,
>>>> he will be upholding the Buddha's body.(note this)
>>>
>>> This someone was talking about Buddha's
>>> ways, and Buddha's body.
>>> He obviously cannot be Buddha himself.
>>>
>>>> All you good men,
>>>> after I have entered extinction
>>>> who can accept and uphold,
>>>> read and recite this sutra?
>>>
>>> What is the key points in this sutra...?
>>> None.
>>> He has merely asserted that this sutra
>>> is like treasure tower, treasure mountain...
>>> liken human as sand in the banks of the
>>> Ganges with super power.
>>>
>>> He was appealing to the readers' greed, to
>>> ther lower desires....for wealth and treasure.
>>> This in itself is against Buddha's core teaching.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Now in the presence of the Buddha
>>>> let him come forward and speak his vow!
>>>> This sutra is hard to uphold;
>>>> if one can uphold it even for a short while
>>>> I will surely rejoice
>>>> and so will the other Buddhas.
>>>
>>> He liken himself to be a Buddha...Is he a
>>> Buddha ? What proof ?
>>>
>>>> A person who can do this
>>>> wins the admiration of the Buddhas.
>>>> This is what is meant by velour,
>>>> this is what is meant by deligence.
>>>> This is what is called observing the precepts
>>>> and practising dhuta.
>>>> This way (No details given) one will quickly attain
>>>> the unsurpassed Buddha way.
>>>
>>> What way....Buddha's core teaching...
>>> or his mysterious way ?
>>>
>>>> And if in future existences
>>>> one can read and uphold this sutra,
>>>> he will be a true son of the Buddha, (Fo Zi)
>>>
>>> Buddha NEVER teach existence beyond
>>> the present life.
>>> Here he deviated from Buddha's teaching.
>>>
>>>
>>>> dwelling in a land spotless and good. (saying the One in us)
>>>
>>> A land spotless and good !?
>>> Is this paradise. Then he deviated from Buddha'
>>> teaching again. Buddha did not promise Heaven
>>> or hell.
>>>
>>>> If after the Buddha has passed into extinction
>>>> one can understand the meaning of this sutra,
>>>> he will be the eyes of the world
>>>> for heavenly and human beings.
>>>
>>> Here, he implied that Buddha has life after
>>> death.
>>> He deviated from Buddha's teaching again.
>>> Buddha did not promise life after death.
>>> Here, he also preached, about heaven.
>>> This again is not Buddha's teaching.
>>>
>>>> If in that fearful age
>>>> one can preach this sutra for even a moment,
>>>> he will deserve to receive alms
>>>> from all heavenly and human beings.
>>>
>>> Receiving alms ? Who should recieve the
>>> alms...the monk himself, or the temple...?
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> [ The moral of this chapter about the Many Treasures Thus Come One is
>>>> to distract readers. If you read Visualising Sutra, the description
>>>> there of the events and the first 13th visualisations are about the
>>>> same pattern. First is Holy Eagle Peak is to remind us of our
>>>> eye-brows. Ten directions, Spotless land etc are talking about the Mark
>>>> on our forehead. The Treasure Tower is imaginary or we can take it as
>>>> our nose. 7 is to remind us of the 7 holes on our face, 2 eyes, 2
>>>> nostrils, 1 mouth and 2 ears. Ten, thousand, million and billion are
>>>> figurative and can denote zero.
>>>> Many sutras have this same pattern and we should just go over them like
>>>> nothing. If you treat them as what they are, then you are absorbed into
>>>> the sutras. We have to turn the sutras, not the other way round. A
>>>> sutra may contain a million words, but the secret is in a small portion
>>>> of words.]
>>>> --------------------------
>>>
>>> Remember, this sutra was a record of
>>> the recitation by Bodhisattva. (Kuan Yin?)
>>>
>>> My comment are given below against the verse.
>>> -------------------------------------
>>>> Chapter 12 - Devadatta
>>>> At that time Bodhisattva Wisdom Accumulated recited these verses of
>>>> praise:
>>>> Of great wisdom and virtue, brave and stalwart,
>>>> you have converted and saved immeasurable beings.
>>>> Now those in this great assembly,
>>>> as well as I myself, have all seen them.
>>>
>>> His praise is for Buddha ?
>>>
>>>> You expound the principles of the true entity,
>>>> open up the Law of the single vehicle, (what is this ?)
>>>> broadly guiding the many beings,
>>>> causing them quickly to attain bodhi.
>>>
>>> Is this about Buddha's teaching ?..causing
>>> human to fully understand human suffering
>>> and the way to stop suffering ....or something
>>> else ? Not specified here.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Manjushri said, "When I was in the ocean I constantly expounded the
>>>> Lotus Sutra of the Wonderful Law alone."
>>>>
>>>
>>>> [ The moral of this chapter is that all living beings will achieve
>>>> salvation.
>>>
>>> Salvation...what salvation ? Going to heaven, eternal life ???
>>> Buddha's NEVER promise heaven or eternal life.
>>>
>>> If by salvation, you mean knowing human suffering
>>> and the way the stop suffering....I fully agree.
>>>
>>>
>>>> There are flaws in this chapter. First is the previous life
>>>> of Devadatta as a seer who expounded the Lotus Sutra to the previous
>>>> life of Sakyamuni Buddha, when he was a king who gave up throne to
>>>> cultivate the Way. ( I must add that ...to seek the knowledge
>>> to stop human sufferings)
>>>
>>> Buddha giving up a life of luxury, power, family loves,..to
>>> seek the way to stop human suffering.
>>> This is true.
>>>
>>> But previous life of Buddha...previous life of
>>> Devadatta....
>>> Eternal life, rebirth are NOT the teachings of Buddha.
>>>
>>>
>>>> If you take the teaching of the sutra, he (who) then
>>>> should be Buddha first because he was well versed in the sutra.
>>>
>>> It is stated very clearly at the beginning, it is the
>>> record of Bodhisattva teaching . It is NOT Buddha's
>>> words nor his teaching.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Second is Manjushri who expounded the Lotus Sutra to beings in the
>>>> ocean. If he can expound the sutra before Sakyamuni expounded this
>>>> sutra, his position should be a Buddha not a Bodhisattva. I take it as
>>>> a parable not true story.
>>>
>>> This story is full of errors if he got the chronological
>>> sequence totally mixed up. If one part is all mixed
>>> up, what is there to say the rest is right ?
>>>
>>>
>>>> Third is the dragon girl of 8 years old who transformed into a man then
>>>> a Buddha in an instance. Logic is Manjushri should be Buddha first
>>>> before the girl because he expounded the Lotus Sutra to her in the
>>>> ocean.
>>>
>>> Again, it is a STORY....fiction, make-belief.
>>> Not about Buddha who was a human being,
>>> with flesh and blood.
>>>
>>> Comment:
>>> Buddhism is NOT like other religions that will
>>> not tolerate the concepts or teaching of others.
>>> Buddhists can read and practise what is taught
>>> in these sutra. (even pray to the God of fertility,
>>> the Penis)
>>> BUT....always remember, these sutra are NOT the
>>> teaching of Buddha. These sutra should be clearly
>>> differentiated and clearly demarcated....Must not
>>> taken to be Buddha's teaching.
>>>
>>>> Bald eagle wrote:
>>>>> "Alex" yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:1157077739.228704.262400@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
>>>>>>I am not interested in arguing whether the sutra was preached by
>>>>>>Buddha
>>>>>> or written by other monks.I am only interested in expounding the
>>>>>> sutra.
>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> Good,
>>>>> This is the first step........Give credit to Buddha
>>>>> when it was Buddha's teaching .....and give credit
>>>>> to others when the sutras were works of other
>>>>> monks.
>>>>>
>>>>> This will ensure the true teachings of Buddha is
>>>>> not mutilated, changed and altered. The spirit of his
>>>>> core teaching should NEVER be deviated or
>>>>> changed.
>>>>>
>>>>> Once, a deviation is not challenged, like the worship
>>>>> of the Penis in Bangkok, others would think that
>>>>> the nonsense were part of Buddha's teaching,
>>>>> and would despise Buddhism.
>>>>>
>>>>> This also apply to others deviations. Buddha did
>>>>> not teach the worship God, life after death, the soul,
>>>>> rebirth (all Hindu concepts). It is equally wrong to
>>>>> attribute such teachings to Buddha. The Lotus Sutra
>>>>> contained such teachings. It should be credited to
>>>>> the author, the monk who wrote this sutra.
>>>>>
>>>>> Buddhism is a very tolerant religion, .....it will tolerate
>>>>> teachings of other religions, from Hinduism, Ancestor
>>>>> worships, Taoism.... to be practised by its followers.
>>>>> However, the followers must never claim that such
>>>>> teaching and practices are the teachings of Buddha.
>>>>> They are NOT.
>>>>
>>
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