On Jul 29, 4:52 pm, abian_c...@
yahoo.com wrote:
> Blame the west for Mao's brutal rule??? You are really something.
?????
Did I write something not factual in my previous post? Did the west
nnot sanctioning China economically at that time? Did such sanction
not adversely affect the lives of hte Chiense people?
This video featured Mao's personal physician. In his book, he had
detailed the metting between Mao and Deng. In response to America's
nuclear bomb threat, Mao asked Deng to establish the "third front" as
a way to spread out China's industrial capability which was
concentrated in the northeastern provinces. Such effort later turned
into the blind alley examplifed by "earthy way to extract steel."
>> On Jul 29, 3:48 pm, abian_c...@
yahoo.com wrote:
>
>>> Here's video chip of "China - A Century of Revolution - Mao's Years"
>>> so why dont you watch it yourself, ok! The cheating was widespread.
>>> Alot of people knew about it but few dared to speak out. PRC defense
>>> minister Peng De-hwei spoke out but later was murdered by Mao.
>
>
>>> Oh, please do continue to twist, cover up so eventually everyone here
>>> will know what happened during Mao's brutal rule. Ok!
>
>> tobe sure, life is brutal when a country is poor. In addition, China
>> was handicapped by western economic sanctions. So, I don't and I have
>> no need to dispute brutal life under Mao's. Nor am I disputing the
>> reality of many Chinese had died as the results of three years of
>> natural disaster.
>
>> However, the issue under discussion is more specific. You wanted to
>> link the famine to Mao's policy. But you had provided no fact.
>> Articles from wikepedia uplinked by unknown people adds only
>> conjectures. For example, it said deep plowing was a problem but then
>> it supplied no concerte evidence such as which commune had redced its
>> per acre output by how much after switching to deep plowing. Other
>> accusation does not even make sense.
>
>> You are welcomed to criticize China, past or present. I have no
>> problem with that. However, you need to be based on fact. Not on cold
>> war rhetoric.
>
>>> On Jul 29, 3:35 pm, ltlee1
hotmail.com> wrote:>
>>>> On Jul 29, 2:54 pm, abian_c...@
yahoo.com wrote:
>
>>>>> Below are two links, one from wiikpedia. Another one from China's
>>>>> website to tell how CCP officials cheated crop production number to
>>>>> central government in order to please Mao for his Great Leap
>>>>> Forward...Now tell us if those are mis-management..
>
>>>>> "Until the early 1980s, the Chinese Government's stance, reflected by
>>>>> the name "Three Years of Natural Disasters", was that the famine was
>>>>> largely a result of a series of natural disasters compounded by some
>>>>> planning errors. Researchers outside China, however, generally agree
>>>>> that massive institutional and policy changes which accompanied the
>>>>> Great Leap Forward were the key factors in the famine.[1] Since the
>>>>> 1980s there has been greater official Chinese recognition of the
>>>>> importance of policy mistakes in causing the disaster, claiming that
>>>>> the disaster was 35%% due to natural causes and 65%% by mismanagement.
>
>>>>> During the Great Leap Forward, farming was organized into communes and
>>>>> the cultivation of private plots forbidden. This forced
>>>>> collectivisation substantially reduced the incentives for peasants to
>>>>> work well. Iron and steel production was identified as a key
>>>>> requirement for economic advancement. Millions of peasants were
>>>>> ordered away from agricultural work to join the iron and steel
>>>>> production workforce.
>
>>>>> Along with collectivisation, the central Government decreed several
>>>>> changes in agricultural techniques based on the ideas of Russian
>>>>> pseudo-scientist Trofim Lysenko. One of these ideas was close
>>>>> planting, whereby the density of seedlings was at first tripled and
>>>>> then doubled again. The theory was that plants of the same species
>>>>> would not compete with each other. In practice they did, which stunted
>>>>> growth and resulted in lower yields. Another policy was based on the
>>>>> ideas of Lysenko's colleague Teventy Maltsev, who encouraged peasants
>>>>> across China to plow deeply into the soil (up to 1 or 2 meters). They
>>>>> believed the most fertile soil was deep in the earth, allowing extra
>>>>> strong root growth. However, useless rocks, soil, and sand were driven
>>>>> up instead, burying the topsoil."
>
>
>>>>> "一九六一年的大饥荒中，当时主政四川的"西南王"李井泉，不顾老百姓死活，拼命迎合毛泽东"大跃进"的思路，以讨好最高领袖来巩固自己的地位。为了给
>>>>> 中央上缴远远超过实际产量的粮食，他在四川农村横征暴敛，使得有"天府之国"美誉的成都平原也陷入千年不遇的饥饿之中。"
>
>>>> Don't even make sense. I am sure that some officials lied about the
>>>> harvest to please Mao and etc. But the lleaders as well as the memebrs
>>>> of the communes knew the truth. They knew how much grain they had
>>>> harvested. They also knew how much they need. If you ran a commune of
>>>> several hundred people, would you send the exaggerated amount of grain
>>>> away if you barely had enough? Of course not. What then?
>
>>>> If you were an individual, government official could certainly send
>>>> some thugs to take all your grains by force. Collectivism was exactly
>>>> the antidote to such governmental abuses. If the government did the
>>>> same thing to a commune of several to thousands of people, it
>>>> certainly needed to send a small army to do the job. The world would
>>>> certainly notice such miltary action if widespread.
>
>
>>>>> On Jul 29, 2:41 pm, ltlee1
hotmail.com> wrote:>
>>>>>> On Jul 29, 2:28 pm, abian_c...@
yahoo.com wrote:
>
>>>>>>> 自然灾害 (natural disaster)??? Great Chinese Famine was not just natural
>>>>>>> disaster but also more man made disaster.
>
>>>>>>> "Since the 1980s there has been greater official Chinese recognition
>>>>>>> of the importance of policy mistakes in causing the disaster, claiming
>>>>>>> that the disaster was 35%% due to natural causes and 65%% by
>>>>>>> mismanagement."
>
>>>>>> Since you are eager to link the starvation to policy, give me some
>>>>>> facts. For instance, what policy led to what?
>
>
>>>>>>> You are in the states, why dont you rent Chinese documentary film
>>>>>>> "China: A Century of Revolution" from netflix.
>
>>>>>>> Also, at that time, your beloved CCP did not allow investigation so
>>>>>>> the number was estimation. Several Chinese professors from top
>>>>>>> universites in China in different years (after 1980) estimated the
>>>>>>> death toll from 17 million to 40 million. I just took most
>>>>>>> conservative number 17 million, the death toll could be even higher!!!
>
>>>>>>> Also, read the reader forun on the link you provided, many of them
>>>>>>> disagreed with the author!!!
>
>>>>>>> On Jul 29, 2:04 pm, ltlee1
hotmail.com> wrote:>
>>>>>>>> On Jul 29, 10:40 am, abian_c...@
yahoo.com wrote:
>
>>>>>>>>> Here's source from China's website, estimated 17 millon Chinese people
>>>>>>>>> starved to death during Great Chinese Famine (1959-1961) because your
>>>>>>>>> Mao's "Great Invention" - Great Leap Forward!!!
>
>>>>>>>>> "西安交大蒋振华教授在1986年和1987年，与李南共同发表两篇文章。他们经研究、推算认为：三年大饥荒，中国非正常死亡人口大约为1700
>>>>>>>>> 万。"
>
>
>>>>>>>> Thank you for the link. But it is obviious from the above link their
>>>>>>>> figure was not generally accepted. Hence,
>
>>>>>>>> "2005年9月，中国民政局官员在新闻发布会上说："三年自然灾害"的数字"我们不掌握"。"
>
>>>>>>>> In addition, they certainly do not link the "unatural death" with
>>>>>>>> Mao's policy. In general, I agree with the following article
>
>
>>>>>>>> Technical problems aside, the number of unnatural death is a fake
>>>>>>>> question. Assuming the best of circumstance, that is, vital statistics
>>>>>>>> were accurate and well kept, the calculated figure still reflects what
>>>>>>>> we don't know more than what we know.. Needless to say, there were no
>>>>>>>> accurate statistics on the 3 years under discussion.
>
>>>>>>>>> On Jul 29, 10:30 am, ltlee1
hotmail.com> wrote:>
>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 29, 10:02 am, baldeagle
yahoo.com.sg> wrote:>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 29, 9:34 pm, "abianc...@
my-deja.com"
my-deja.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Mao's Great Leap Forward caused 17 million Chinese people starve to
>>>>>>>>>>>> death.
>
>>>>>>>>>>> You have no proof. Just repeating spin
>>>>>>>>>>> doctor's jingle. You cannot think for yourself..
>>>>>>>>>>> how pitiful !
>
>>>>>>>>>> China bashers have invented news laundering. Unless one is careful, he
>>>>>>>>>> or she will be misinformed.
>>>>>>>>>> The follwoing is one example.
>
>>>>>>>>>> Mickey Wong quoted accoridng to
>
>
>>>>>>>>>> 前《纽约时报》驻北京采访主任纪思道（Ｎｉｃｈｌａｓ Ｄ・Ｋｒｉｓｔｏｆ）
>>>>>>>>>> 和伍洁芳（Ｓｈｅｒｙｌ Ｗｕｄｕｎｎ）合著的《中国觉醒了》
>>>>>>>>>> （Ｃｈｉｎａ Ａｗａｋｅｓ）中说："据中共前公安部长罗瑞卿
>
> ...
>
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