> On Jul 29, 3:48 pm, abian_c...@
yahoo.com wrote:
>
>> Here's video chip of "China - A Century of Revolution - Mao's Years"
>> so why dont you watch it yourself, ok! The cheating was widespread.
>> Alot of people knew about it but few dared to speak out. PRC defense
>> minister Peng De-hwei spoke out but later was murdered by Mao.
>
>
>> Oh, please do continue to twist, cover up so eventually everyone here
>> will know what happened during Mao's brutal rule. Ok!
>
> tobe sure, life is brutal when a country is poor. In addition, China
> was handicapped by western economic sanctions. So, I don't and I have
> no need to dispute brutal life under Mao's. Nor am I disputing the
> reality of many Chinese had died as the results of three years of
> natural disaster.
>
> However, the issue under discussion is more specific. You wanted to
> link the famine to Mao's policy. But you had provided no fact.
> Articles from wikepedia uplinked by unknown people adds only
> conjectures. For example, it said deep plowing was a problem but then
> it supplied no concerte evidence such as which commune had redced its
> per acre output by how much after switching to deep plowing. Other
> accusation does not even make sense.
>
> You are welcomed to criticize China, past or present. I have no
> problem with that. However, you need to be based on fact. Not on cold
> war rhetoric.
>
>
>
>
>
>> On Jul 29, 3:35 pm, ltlee1
hotmail.com> wrote:>
>>> On Jul 29, 2:54 pm, abian_c...@
yahoo.com wrote:
>
>>>> Below are two links, one from wiikpedia. Another one from China's
>>>> website to tell how CCP officials cheated crop production number to
>>>> central government in order to please Mao for his Great Leap
>>>> Forward...Now tell us if those are mis-management..
>
>>>> "Until the early 1980s, the Chinese Government's stance, reflected by
>>>> the name "Three Years of Natural Disasters", was that the famine was
>>>> largely a result of a series of natural disasters compounded by some
>>>> planning errors. Researchers outside China, however, generally agree
>>>> that massive institutional and policy changes which accompanied the
>>>> Great Leap Forward were the key factors in the famine.[1] Since the
>>>> 1980s there has been greater official Chinese recognition of the
>>>> importance of policy mistakes in causing the disaster, claiming that
>>>> the disaster was 35%% due to natural causes and 65%% by mismanagement.
>
>>>> During the Great Leap Forward, farming was organized into communes and
>>>> the cultivation of private plots forbidden. This forced
>>>> collectivisation substantially reduced the incentives for peasants to
>>>> work well. Iron and steel production was identified as a key
>>>> requirement for economic advancement. Millions of peasants were
>>>> ordered away from agricultural work to join the iron and steel
>>>> production workforce.
>
>>>> Along with collectivisation, the central Government decreed several
>>>> changes in agricultural techniques based on the ideas of Russian
>>>> pseudo-scientist Trofim Lysenko. One of these ideas was close
>>>> planting, whereby the density of seedlings was at first tripled and
>>>> then doubled again. The theory was that plants of the same species
>>>> would not compete with each other. In practice they did, which stunted
>>>> growth and resulted in lower yields. Another policy was based on the
>>>> ideas of Lysenko's colleague Teventy Maltsev, who encouraged peasants
>>>> across China to plow deeply into the soil (up to 1 or 2 meters). They
>>>> believed the most fertile soil was deep in the earth, allowing extra
>>>> strong root growth. However, useless rocks, soil, and sand were driven
>>>> up instead, burying the topsoil."
>
>
>>>> "一九六一年的大饥荒中，当时主政四川的"西南王"李井泉，不顾老百姓死活，拼命迎合毛泽东"大跃进"的思路，以讨好最高领袖来巩固自己的地位。为了给
>>>> 中央上缴远远超过实际产量的粮食，他在四川农村横征暴敛，使得有"天府之国"美誉的成都平原也陷入千年不遇的饥饿之中。"
>
>>> Don't even make sense. I am sure that some officials lied about the
>>> harvest to please Mao and etc. But the lleaders as well as the memebrs
>>> of the communes knew the truth. They knew how much grain they had
>>> harvested. They also knew how much they need. If you ran a commune of
>>> several hundred people, would you send the exaggerated amount of grain
>>> away if you barely had enough? Of course not. What then?
>
>>> If you were an individual, government official could certainly send
>>> some thugs to take all your grains by force. Collectivism was exactly
>>> the antidote to such governmental abuses. If the government did the
>>> same thing to a commune of several to thousands of people, it
>>> certainly needed to send a small army to do the job. The world would
>>> certainly notice such miltary action if widespread.
>
>
>>>> On Jul 29, 2:41 pm, ltlee1
hotmail.com> wrote:>
>>>>> On Jul 29, 2:28 pm, abian_c...@
yahoo.com wrote:
>
>>>>>> 自然灾害 (natural disaster)??? Great Chinese Famine was not just natural
>>>>>> disaster but also more man made disaster.
>
>>>>>> "Since the 1980s there has been greater official Chinese recognition
>>>>>> of the importance of policy mistakes in causing the disaster, claiming
>>>>>> that the disaster was 35%% due to natural causes and 65%% by
>>>>>> mismanagement."
>
>>>>> Since you are eager to link the starvation to policy, give me some
>>>>> facts. For instance, what policy led to what?
>
>
>>>>>> You are in the states, why dont you rent Chinese documentary film
>>>>>> "China: A Century of Revolution" from netflix.
>
>>>>>> Also, at that time, your beloved CCP did not allow investigation so
>>>>>> the number was estimation. Several Chinese professors from top
>>>>>> universites in China in different years (after 1980) estimated the
>>>>>> death toll from 17 million to 40 million. I just took most
>>>>>> conservative number 17 million, the death toll could be even higher!!!
>
>>>>>> Also, read the reader forun on the link you provided, many of them
>>>>>> disagreed with the author!!!
>
>>>>>> On Jul 29, 2:04 pm, ltlee1
hotmail.com> wrote:>
>>>>>>> On Jul 29, 10:40 am, abian_c...@
yahoo.com wrote:
>
>>>>>>>> Here's source from China's website, estimated 17 millon Chinese people
>>>>>>>> starved to death during Great Chinese Famine (1959-1961) because your
>>>>>>>> Mao's "Great Invention" - Great Leap Forward!!!
>
>>>>>>>> "西安交大蒋振华教授在1986年和1987年，与李南共同发表两篇文章。他们经研究、推算认为：三年大饥荒，中国非正常死亡人口大约为1700
>>>>>>>> 万。"
>
>
>>>>>>> Thank you for the link. But it is obviious from the above link their
>>>>>>> figure was not generally accepted. Hence,
>
>>>>>>> "2005年9月，中国民政局官员在新闻发布会上说："三年自然灾害"的数字"我们不掌握"。"
>
>>>>>>> In addition, they certainly do not link the "unatural death" with
>>>>>>> Mao's policy. In general, I agree with the following article
>
>
>>>>>>> Technical problems aside, the number of unnatural death is a fake
>>>>>>> question. Assuming the best of circumstance, that is, vital statistics
>>>>>>> were accurate and well kept, the calculated figure still reflects what
>>>>>>> we don't know more than what we know.. Needless to say, there were no
>>>>>>> accurate statistics on the 3 years under discussion.
>
>>>>>>>> On Jul 29, 10:30 am, ltlee1
hotmail.com> wrote:>
>>>>>>>>> On Jul 29, 10:02 am, baldeagle
yahoo.com.sg> wrote:>
>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 29, 9:34 pm, "abianc...@
my-deja.com"
my-deja.com>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:>
>>>>>>>>>>> Mao's Great Leap Forward caused 17 million Chinese people starve to
>>>>>>>>>>> death.
>
>>>>>>>>>> You have no proof. Just repeating spin
>>>>>>>>>> doctor's jingle. You cannot think for yourself..
>>>>>>>>>> how pitiful !
>
>>>>>>>>> China bashers have invented news laundering. Unless one is careful, he
>>>>>>>>> or she will be misinformed.
>>>>>>>>> The follwoing is one example.
>
>>>>>>>>> Mickey Wong quoted accoridng to
>
>
>>>>>>>>> 前《纽约时报》驻北京采访主任纪思道（Ｎｉｃｈｌａｓ Ｄ・Ｋｒｉｓｔｏｆ）
>>>>>>>>> 和伍洁芳（Ｓｈｅｒｙｌ Ｗｕｄｕｎｎ）合著的《中国觉醒了》
>>>>>>>>> （Ｃｈｉｎａ Ａｗａｋｅｓ）中说："据中共前公安部长罗瑞卿
>>>>>>>>> 提交的报告估算，从１９４８年到１９５５年，有４００万人被处 决。"
>
>>>>>>>>> -------------------------
>>>>>>>>> The claim:
>>>>>>>>> The above claimed that former PRC minister of Public Secuity had
>>>>>>>>> turned in a report on the number of people executed. Andn it quote
>>>>>>>>> CHINA AWAKES as its source.
>
>>>>>>>>> The Spin:
>>>>>>>>> Other media outlet, including western free press then quote the above,
>>>>>>>>> (Cao was also upgraded to Chinese scholar) as iron clad proof that
>>>>>>>>> China had officially admitted that it had executed 4 million of
>>>>>>>>> people.
>
>>>>>>>>> The reality:
>
> ...
>
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