> In reply to an honest post of PaPaPeng, RAK wrote the following.
>
> PaPaPeng posted:

>> On 16 Oct 2006 11:45:12 -0700, "BimmerBoy" hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>

>>> I should point out that it's quite amazing just how mainland Chinese, Taiwanese
>>>and HOng Kong people really see things very differently and I
>>>appreciate how differently Hong Kong people think compared to mainland
>>>Chinese who've no 'soul' and who have been indoctrinated by the
>>>government.

>>
>>
>> That's funny. I live in a city with around 80 thousand Chinese from
>> all over the world. Hongkies hate Taiwanese and the feeling is
>> returned with equal fervor. For some undefined reason Hongkies think
>> themselves superior to Taiwanese. The Taiwanese resent that put down
>> but I don't know enough Taiwanese to know what they think of Hongkies
>> and other Chinese. Singaporeans think themselves superior to
>> Malaysians and both think themselves better Westernized than Hongkies
>> andTaiwanese. Hongkies and Taiwanese sneer at Singaporeans and
>> Malysians as inferior Chinese. Suffice to say that by the time they
>> leave grade school each type of Chinese learn to stay away from each
>> other and you seldom find them as friends in high school onwards or
>> in social life as working adults. We have a Heritage Festival each
>> summer where cultural and ethnic groups get to put up a tent and show
>> off their country and culture, but mostly to make some easy monet
>> selling cooked food. The fact that there are separate tents, exhibits
>> and food concessions for the PRC , ROC, HK, Singapore and Malaysia is
>> telling. Many of nthe other east Asian tents may represent the
>> Philippines, Thailand, etc. Often they are manned by ethnic Chinese.
>>
>> The last ten years have seen many mainland Chinese immigrants, just
>> about every one of them over qualified but have to remake themselves
>> because their China qualifications are not transferable for job
>> qualifications. They form a significant Chinese community now and can
>> no longer be bullied as they once were by overseas Chinese as people
>> just off the boat. Needless to say they bring with them authentic
>> Chinese culture and arts that overseas Chinese cannot equal.

>
> RAK replies:
>
> PaPaPeng, I congratulate you on an honest and less biased post, for
> once. Certainly you're not like enterprise or even J Venning who know
> deep down that RAK is right in so many ways but are embarrassed to see
> mainland Chinese flaws aired on USENET, and are therefore left
> psychologically convulsing for all to see. They keep wondering just why
> everyone cannot sing in unison praising how great life in China is and
> how great those mainland Chinese are all so hot! Of course they have
> nothing to rebut and hence start calling viewpoints that they find
> disagreeable 'trollish'. In that spirit I really wish they would call
> me even more names, because it merely indicates that they have lost the
> point. Gracelessly.
>
> As for your post, I agree with a lot of what you've written here - with
> the exception of the last paragraph - I have strong reservations about
> your rosy view of mainland Chinese and how they will not be looked down
> by overseas Chinese, especially ABCs. The reason is simple. I've posted
> on this before. Just as elite white liberals look down on white trash,
> and Uncle Toms look down on black ghetto bros, established Chinese
> loathe mainland Chinese - a sentiment that many Caucasians and Westerns
> just will not understand. For the simple reason that these third world
> hordes really reflect sooooo very badly on them. People often say that
> the Chinese are like a family - in fact I suspect that unification
> group loves to say this. Well, if that's the case, then clearly these
> hordes of 3rd worlders are black sheep in the family, a disgrace in the
> family. Is it any surprise that they are shunned if not ostracized in
> day to day social life? Don't get me wrong - I'm not talking about
> hostility - like Muslim vs Jews or Christians for instance, but merely
> we go out quiet, separate ways with one group hoping to be more like
> the other, and you which group is which, don't you?
>
> As you're so honest, I'll just say that your circle of friends are very
> different from mine. I will not divulge further. If I restrict my
> circle of friends to overseas Chinese (most born here or come very
> early, i.e. 1.5 gen), I cannot think of one who has *anything* positive
> to say about mainland Chinese. I really can't. Mainland Chinese tutors?
> There was a post before and I can repost it later here what a Taiwanese
> poster thought of him. See below.
>
> Whether you believe it that overseas Chinese really loathe mainland
> Chinese - well, all I say is that it's my experience across
> generations. Some use the term "lack of human quality"; others go so
> far to label mainland Chinese 'human trash'. These people are
> middle-aged, from Taiwan, HOng Kong. Many are from the upper middle and
> higher classes (defined as $3 million US family assets and higher for
> North American upper middle class for this purpose) and this sentiment
> is very common.
>
> I'm sure you've met people who think otherwise and who really like
> mainland Chinese (in fact I find Caucasians, as Vernon North implied,
> often have this romantic rosy view & love for mainland Chinese and
> China. It's psychologically understandable. Eastern Europe is poor, but
> I see the culture there, way more refined than American pop culture,
> and thus hold a certain fascination. But for East Europeans - no way!
> They hated every minute of it. And many people love mainland Chinese
> because they're poorer and are thus less of a threat; and they tend to
> be very subservient unlike Hong Kongese who can be loud and more
> assertive with their economic clout). But like you said, different
> subgroups of Chinese do band together, and so the fact that you hang
> out in a different group (have to rub that in sorry, in all likelihood
> not an affluent group or even upper middle class group based on what
> you told me!) does not negate the fact that there are many who feel a
> vague and sometimes often not so vague sense of superiority that they
> instinctually feel over mainland Chinese.
>
> Your post is in fact sort of similar to what I've been pointing out all
> along. Yet as mentioned you neglected to mention that Hong Kongese,
> Singaporeans, and Taiwanese ALL look down on mainland Chinese
> regardless of whether they look down on each other. Their habits, their
> dress codes, their mannerisms, their low socioeconomic status. It does
> not matter which generation you're talking about; I'm telling you this
> 'class' or 'ethnic' consciousness is clearly unmistakably there. And I
> laugh at your statement that just because they form a large community
> they cannot be bullied by mainland Chinese. Well, guess what, it's
> almost like white flight when Hispanics move into a neighborhood - a
> Taiwan friend of mine said his family moved out when the mainland
> Chinese moved in - because of drop in property prices. Now take that!
> They form a community all right, but it's a ghetto that they're
> forming.
>
> As for your question about Hong Kongese feeling superior to Taiwanese -
> I say probably that's because they are more Westernized and can speak
> better English as a whole; likewise Singaporeans are known to have an
> even higher level of English compared to Hong Kongese. Like I said
> before, expats esp from America but from UK, Australia as well return
> home triumphant and 'high' with lots of jobs (and yes, girls) available
> - and some have become actors/singers. Mainland Chinese, however, are
> looked down upon. For proof, I submit this which has been posted on
> soc.culture.china before. Read the entire article (1). After the
> article I submit a common sentiment on mainland Chinese tutors posted
> on these newsgroups not by myself but by another poster before. (2)
>
> I will repost this as a separate thread.
>
> (1)
> Sun, Apr. 02, 2006
> email this
> print this
> Zhang Ziyi getting a snarky reception
> In the view of some Hong Kong media, the star is more of a wannabe
> By Min Lee
> ASSOCIATED PRESS
>
> HONG KONG
>
> She speaks English with a funky Beijing accent. The beaded black and
> gray Armani outfit she wore to the Oscars was frumpy. She squats on the
> floor like a Chinese farmer when she goes shopping.
>
> So say Hong Kong media, which just love to bash Zhang Ziyi -- the movie
> world's hottest young Chinese actress.
>
> Although Hollywood is enthralled with the spunky beauty who starred in
> "Memoirs of a Geisha" and "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon," Zhang's
> critics in this movie-mad city enjoy picking her apart.
>
> "Zhang Ziyi's Armani evening gown made her look so flat-chested it was
> scary," the Sing Tao Daily, a major Chinese-language newspaper, said in
> a headline about the 27-year-old starlet's appearance at the Oscars.
>
> Zhang, who declined to provide comment for this story, has said
> previously the venom has to do with Hong Kongers' deeply entrenched
> bias against mainland Chinese, who are viewed to be bumpkins and gold
> diggers.
>
> "They think, 'How can you be an international movie star? You are only
> from China.' For them, China is like the countryside," Zhang was quoted
> as saying in an interview with the Sunday Times of London in 2004.
>
> Hong Kong was a British colony for more than 150 years before it was
> returned to China in 1997. The city, a global financial center, is much
> more cosmopolitan than mainland cities, and the population is better
> educated and more affluent.
>
> A good example of the disdain for mainlanders is found in a 2004
> article about Zhang in Next magazine, a popular weekly glossy known for
> its hard-charging paparazzi.
>
> The publication printed a photo allegedly showing Zhang squatting down
> to browse the bottom shelf in a store. A picture caption said, "Miss
> Zhang displays the special trait of our motherland's compatriots" --
> squatting down, her legs splayed. People can often be seen squatting in
> China in crowded places -- such as railroad stations -- where the
> ground is too dirty for sitting and there's limited public seating.
>
> Zhang's rapid rise and ongoing success may also feed envy that has made
> her the favorite dart board for Hong Kong's newspapers and magazines,
> whose hyper aggressive celebrity coverage makes U.S. supermarket
> tabloids look like National Geographic.
>
> Many of the Hong Kong publications made sure their knives were
> extra-sharp for the Oscars, where Zhang presented the award for best
> editing.
>
> A headline in Apple Daily -- one of the most popular dailies -- ripped
> into Zhang's English: "Zhang Ziyi presents awards with Beijing-accented
> English."
>
> The Ming Pao Daily noted the Zhang forgot to hug or shake hands with
> the award winner. The Zhang-bashing didn't stop there. Hong Kong
> writers also savaged her Giorgio Armani outfit: a black beaded bustier
> with a crystal encrusted gray skirt.
>
> "Lacking in youthful vigor," read a photo caption in the Oriental Daily
> News, a mass-market Chinese-language paper. Apple Daily hissed, "Zhang
> Ziyi two decades behind the times."
>
> Zhang's performance could have been an ethnic Chinese pride-pumping
> moment, and that's how it was treated by media in mainland China and
> Taiwan.
>
> "Zhang Ziyi's English rolls off her tongue," said the Liberty Times,
> one of Taiwan's three biggest dailies. Another Taiwanese paper, the Min
> Sheng Daily, said "Zhang Ziyi's English is no longer poor."
>
> ------
>
> (2) Typical sentiments towards mainland Chinese tutors - RAK concurs
> with this poster's assessment
>
> Okay, y'all know I'm Chinese-American myself, born on Taiwan no
> less...but I'm getting quite frustrated with Chinese
> instructors/teaching assistants who CAN'T SPEAKING FUCKING
> ENGLISH!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> They tend to be employed for "technical" classes in math and sciences,
> which for most folks that take such courses are confusing enough to
> begin with!
>
> Ironically, often in these fields if you're off by a decimal place you
> screw up big...but when it comes to English proficiency the widest
> chasm of unintelligibility is tolerated for some reason!
>
> I know you're FOB, whatever...but fuck it, even undergrads have to take
> some fucking TOEFL or whatever the fuck it's called! How the fuck did
> y'all get hired speaking with rocks in your mouths! Do they do
> interviews anymore, or is the situation that goddamned desperate??
>
> You don't know whether they are saying "able" or "apple," whether they
> mean "find" instead of "found," if it's "probability" or "property" or
> "probably"...it just adds an extra layer/level of semantic
> cross-referencing/parsing...WTF!!!!!! Imagine the guy at your local
> take-out trying to teach you math and sciences...you want some x with
> that y??
>
> @#$%%^&*!!!