Zhen,

What you accuse me of bending and being blatantly biased you do
equally well, if not better. If you want me to be fair to you, you
must be fair yourself.

1) Before we continue discussing I hope that you can find the balance
in you *pause and try real hard please* to view all candidates
(although perhaps it might be a little late now) with an open mind too
and not merely strategically position GVP as the one and only person.
Had you not done this nor inflate and/or twist GVP's achievements
which shouldn't be his, such as crediting him for our immigration to
the West, I wouldn't have responded. Do you recall saying this, "the
reason why we are here is due to GVP--short one sentence"? You didn't
qualify further, but I inferred that you believe our exodus was part
of GVP's grand scheme and a planned and positive achievement since you
lent support to other SCH members' posts with similar tones. If my
inference is correct then prove it to us. If you can't or know it's
not true, then stop it.

2) Your bias and disregard of other candidates are evident. Right off
the bat you painted DYD as doing a disservice to all Hmong; that he
didn't do any good for anybody other than himself, and furthermore he
delivered a list of Hmong intellectuals' "heads to the LPDR." It's
been several years since he "did that" and thus far I haven't heard of
any one intellectual getting poisoned, maimed or killed? Have you?
Perhaps it was just a miscontrued event? Maybe he was just boasting
how much Hmong have accomplished in the US, but others such as you
viewed his actions as being treacherous? How come when GVP sends Hmong
from the US and Thailand back to Laos on a futile mission to get
killed (when he knows there's no support from the US gov't, thus no
chance of victory) you don't call him out? But when DYD presents just
a list you insinuate Hmong heads will fall? One has actually sent
people to their deaths while the other has merely compromised the
intellectuals' safety, if that, no? (personally I think very little
will come of it, and so far very little has).

Furthermore don't you recall that just before GVP left LongCheng he
wanted to continue the war, but DYD had learnt information that other
parties, political groups, and armies were converging to make a deal
to scapegoat the Hmong therefore it'd be suicidal to fight on? He
informed and reasoned with GVP hence the inevitable deaths of more
Hmong were averted. How can this be a disservice to us? You too
should be fair.

3) Just stop it with this "If it weren't for GVP this and that person
wouldn't be where they are, etc." Enough. Yes GVP fostered certain
conditions, but others before and behind him helped him along the way
too. Not all roads lead to him nor do they stem from him only.

4) You plead that I read your posts carefully. I have. You should do
the same too. You challenged me to name somebody in the LAST 40 YEARS
who achieved (using effort, ambition, goal setting, and intention as
the criteria) as much as GVP, hence I used Pajkaub Hawj and the Chao
Fa resistance. PKH was just murdered in 2003(?) and this falls into
the 40 years time frame, correct? Now had you said list somebody from
the 60's to 1975-ish then fine, I would've just used Lis Lwm and
others in that era.

5) And I have read your definition to determine achievement. Several
times actually. It's not that I don't agree with your definition, I
do, but when you state that nobody did anything COMPARABLE to GVP then
I have a problem with this. In order to prove that nobody achieved
anything as much as he did you must be able to emperically QUANTIFY
your hypothesis and show the difference. For instance if GVP achieved
10 goals whereas the other only achieved 4 goals, then yes, he
accomplished more. However, if he didn't achieve any of his end goals
and neither did the other, then technically they're all equal,
correct? Now if we use unquantifiable criteria like effort and
intention to define achievement, which is what you espouse, and I too
agree with, then I or anybody can argue that Lis Lwm and others did as
much as GVP, if not more, hence relatively COMPARABLE. Let me
illustrate. Although GVP commanded troops, spent a great deal of time
and energy strategizing, physically moving from place to place,
physically fighting, and fed CIA money to some poor (although far from
being satisfactory, since when he left LongCheng there was a horde of
money left behind around his compound which should've been given to
starving widows and orphans before the war was lost) Lis Lwm did
things that had similar or equal in effort and intention. For example
he became a pilot in a relative short time, was an excellent pilot at
that, flew countless sorties, tirelessly fought on when others have
stopped, and ultimately he gave his life for us Hmong, Lao, others,
and American interests. He's a perfect candidate reflecting the Hmong
spirit and sacrifice. This is a case of comparing apples to oranges.
Both taste good, but to say which is better is impossible. This is why
I pointed for you to stop phrasing things like "no other's
achievements are comparable to GVP's" if you CANNOT QUANTIFY them and
clearly show for all to see. Now had you said GVP achieved great
things etc, then fine, there's nothing wrong with this. We applaud his
effort, but keep it real and don't credit him for things he didn't do.

6) You are making excuses for GVP's murders. How can you say "i am
sure GVP was self-justified in the killing..." and then later state
"ALTHOUGH THE PUNISHMENT DOES NOT FIT THE CRIME"? If the punishment
doesn't fit the crime then say GVP was wrong, period. No amount of
"self-justifying" would make it justifiable in the eyes of a just
society. Say for example a particular girl insults you harshly. You
then poker her eyes out with a pencil. You "self-justified" your
action, yes, but the judge is sending you behind bars for that action
despite your poor reason(s). We Hmong didn't have formal written laws
back then, but we knew that murdering an unarmed person who's pleading
is wrong. So in this case GVP practically committed a crime. Seeking
retribution for that crime or unjust action however lied in how strong
your clan/family was and I'm not sure if Hawj Vaj's family had enough,
if any.

Furthermore, even though Hawj Vaj begged for his life, "thov koj nawb
yawg hlob. kuv tau ua txhaum lawm" for just taking cattle GVP still
shot him dead. What does this say about GVPs character? If he can do
this to a pleading man in front of witnesses don't you summarize he's
capable of committing other murders? Refer to the list I posted in the
other thread.

7) If you weren't being clever in your argument then I'm sorry and
will take it back. But if you weren't being clever then this means you
actually believe in what you're saying and this is problematic.
Perhaps at this point and time in your research you just haven't
uncovered GVP's dark side like his tantrums and murders. My father and
others often say when GVP's mad he'd use language unbecoming of a man
of his status. "Pim thiab qau" expletives were used often, equal to
what you and vaajmoob threw at each other several months back.

Anyhow, I believe I made my points. I'm going to another thread that's
in need of expanding. If you want to clarify some more it's up to you.
You can have the last word.

Tou Ly

On May 25, 4:57 pm, zhen gmail.com> wrote: