On Feb 25, 9:14 a
Thank You Mr/Ms Sunrise for a very informative reply. There are still
a lot of things to learn about the Hmongs. I however feel that the
number of 300,000 Hmongs in USA in 2006 seemed to be too high if one
were to believe in the number of 70,000 Hmongs in 1988. This is
equivalent to a quadrupling in 20 years (1988-2007). The Figure of
70,000 in 1988 is trustworthy because the number of Hmongs admitted to
USA as refugees was 50,000 from Immigration records
2)You mentioned Hmong Refugees accepted by the French and Australia.
I found an interesting info in this regard. After 1975 several
thousands Hmongs were accepted by France to be settled in Nouvelle
Caledonia.
Many Hmongs became good agriculturist in Nouvelle Caledonia where they
were/are the most important suppliers of fruit and vegetable of this
French Territory to local markets and for export.
Second generation Hmong in Nouvelle Caledonia, are French Citizen at
Birth. Many of them emigrated to France where they became Lawyers,
Doctors and Engineer. A few years ago when the Military Service
existed in France, these Hmongs served in the military and many became
officers.
3) When I cited the figure of 70%% of the Hmongs on welfare in my
previous article it was not intended as a slight on the Hmongs, I
took that figure from a Hmong Website. I found that the figure cited
in the webpage was outdated (around 1988) as has been pointed out to
me by Nojnk.......... and does not reflect reality.
I also learnt that at the present time many Hmongs are agriculturists
in California where they owned big farms employing "illegal
Immigrants" producing vegetable and fruit for the groceries stores in
Little Saigons. A few became millionaires and had a very luxurious
life.
4)Looking at my own People, the Vietnamese, I had the conviction that
the migration of 1 million plus Vietnamese to the First World (USA,
Europe, Australia, Japan etc...)could be the most important Migration of
Ethnic Vietnamese in term of potential influence over the Vietnamese
Staying in the Old Country and the state of Vietnam when our influence
will be full blown . We had 2 earlier migrations which were also
important. The first Migration was the Southern Migration (Nam
Tien)from Tongking to Central and Southern Vietnam lasting several
hundreds years (1400-1900)but with strong impetus since the advent of
Nguyen Hoang going to Thuan Hoa (Hue and quang Nam region) in the
year 1600 thereby doubling the territory of Vietnam at the expense
of Champa and Cambodia.. The Second was the migration of about 1
millions Vietnamese who were more or less collaborators of the French
Colonialists during colonial time and who fled in 1954-1955. This
Migration to South VN in itself was not very important except that it
facilitated the Third Migration to the USA and the First World
bringing the number of highly trained , college educated Vietkieu to
about 200,000- 300,000.
The importance of this Third Migration to the First World has not
become full blown yet not because that there are not enough of us who
wanted to go back, at least on a part time basis , to help but
because of the heavy bureaucracy of the Vietkong which could not
absorb the expatriate brainpower fast enough. But enough Boat People
had gone home and enough Dollars had been remitted by boat People to
make a significant difference that even the Vietnamese Communists had
decreed that the Oversea Vietnamese (Vietkieu) are the un-dissociable
part of the Whole Vietnamese People Entity.
I myself strongly believe that if the talent of the entire Vietnamese
Diaspora could be mobilized in the Reconstruction and transformation
of Vietnam into a developed country, such task could be accelerated
by a few decades.
I am sure that what I am saying here about the Vietnamese and the Boat
People is also true for the Hmong. Percentage wise there are more
Hmong in the First World than Vietnamese. Had you and your friends
who were Hmong, thought that the 300,000 Hmongs resident in the First
World could be the Catalyst to bring the entire Hmongpopulation in
Asia into the 21rst Century. And How are you going to achieve this
goal ?
Do you think you need to get rid of the Vietkong and the Chicom
(there are more Hmong in China!) before anything can be done to help
the Hmong stranded in Vietnam and China or you think that a peaceful
road map can be designed with the Vietkong or the Chicom for you to
bring help to your brothers and sisters at home.?
m, "Sunrise"
yahoo.com> wrote:> Your information about Hmong in Vietnam coincided with what we've
> learned about the Hmong from Laos.
>
> 1. Chinese Archives dated Hmong live in along the Yellow River and
> Central China 3000 B.C.
> 2. Hmong are pushed to the southwest region by the Han Chinese and
> records found Hmong existed in Yunnan Province in 862 A.D.
> 3. Scholars dated Hmong migrating into Indochina, primarily Laos and
> Vietnam, from China in the early 1800's.
> 4. From 1840-68, revolts erupted betweent the Hmong and Chnese, which
> ended with more than 10,000 Hmong escaping persecution into Southeast
> Asia, mainly Laos and Vietnam.
> 5. By 1881, another 10,000 Hmong were found migrating to Southeast
> Asia from China mainly into Lao Cai, Yen Bai, and Ha Giang Provinces
> in Vietnam.
> 6. Laos and parts of Vietnam become French protectorates in 1893.
> 7. In 1896, about 30,000 Hmong in Laos, 20,000 in Thailand and Hmong
> in Vietnam could not be accounted for at this time.
> 8. In 1960, Hmong according to the U.S. Library of Congress and CIA
> Archives indicaded Touby Lyfong and Vang Pao were Hmong's top leaders
> and about 300,000 living in Laos by this time. More than 30,000 Hmong
> troops were recruited by the U.S. government to fight the Communist,
> aka, Secret War, from 1960-1973.
> 9. 1975, the Secret War ended, forcing more than 100,000 thousand
> Hmong into exile (France, Australia, Canada, and the U.S.).
> 10. In 1988, Hmong in the U.S. number 70,000.
> 11. May 15, 1997 - U.S. Congress finally recognized, honored and
> commemorated Hmong and placed an engraved plaque in Washington DC for
> their valor sacrifice during the Vietnam War.
> 12. In 2000 - Hmong in the U.S. according to Hmong National
> Development, Inc. number about 283,239; 300,000 in Laos.
> 13. 2006 - Hmong totaled 315,000 in the U.S.; 6,000 Hmong remain
> refugees in Thailand from Laos; Hmong population in Thailand and
> Vietname remain unaccounted for.
> 14. 2006 - Hmong students in the U.S. were found in the same level as
> Whites in academic achievement from K-12 school. 70 percents of Hmong
> entered the workforce and became home owners.
>
> On Feb 24, 11:35 pm, Elchinoboatconscie...@
gmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
>> LOYALTY TO YOUR ex=SLAVES WHILE A PRAISEWORTHY CAUSE BUT NOT
>> If such loyalty is to cause your ex-slaves more hardship than if they
>> were to be left alone.
>> Mr Kovan was interested, which is to his credit, in the fate of the
>> Hmongs who had served him during the Nam War against present real or
>> imaginary persecution by the Vietkong who supposedly punished them for
>> past collaboration with the Kovans.
>> What I knew of the Hmong was from superficially reading US or Western
>> sources which gave me a contradictory picture of the Hmong. Where do
>> they come from ? What is there Geographical distribution and why did
>> they collaborate with the US.
>> A short trip to Ha Giang, the Northern most province of Vietnam next
>> to China last Christmas encouraged me to do an in depth investigation.
>> Ha Giang was the road by which the Hmong arrived to VN from China in
>> last 300 years in 3 waves of immigration.
>> What is new to me was before 1954, there were no Hmongs in what is
>> known later as South Vietnam. At the end of the War against the
>> French, Their main distribution was highest in China (about 70%%) then
>> North Vietnam (20-25%%) Laos (5-10%% ) ,Thailand about 1%% and South
>> Vietnam = 0%%. The Hmong in North Vietnam lived in the provinces of
>> Ha Giang, lao cai, cao bang, son la , Bac can and Thai Nguyen. None
>> of them lived in the Central Highlands of South VN in the Provinces
>> of kongtum, Darlac, Lam Dong and ban Me Thuat.
>> But from Mr Daiuy's posts and others who hated the Communists, all of
>> the persecutions of Highlanders occurred on population in the
>> Highlands of South Vietnam in the provinces referred to above. So were
>> these persecuted Hmong who came from China in last 300 years and who
>> belonged, ethnically, to the mongoloid groups called by the Chinese
>> as the Giao or Chuang and who inhabited Guichow, Quang Xi and Yunnan
>> or were they kotu, Rade', Jarai, a Melanesian group who came to
>> Vietnam from South Asia Islands (Indonesia, Borneo, Malaysia etc...)
>> tens of thousands years ago ?
>> But the records showed that the Individuals who fled to Cambodia from
>> VC persecution were mainly Hmongs interspersed with a few Melanesians
>> who were converted into Protestantism (Mennonite etc...). So the
>> Hmong in South Vietnam came to the South like the Catholic Kinh as
>> auxiliary forces (and their family) of the French Expeditionary
>> Forces after their defeat at Dienbienfu. These Hmong folks numbering
>> then at the most a few tens of thousands. But their number were
>> augmented by the Hmongs from Laos who were recruited by Ong Kovans
>> into his Special Forces to interdict the Vietkong on the HCM trail.
>> The American War in Laos lasted even longer than the American War in
>> Vietnam producing a population of collaborators headed by Vang Pao of
>> several hundreds thousands. I doubted that all of them were pure
>> Hmong. Other components like the Melanesians and Cambodians were
>> likely present.
>> After the war about 50,000 were imported to the USA settling mainly in
>> Minnesota , Wisconsin and California. Their total number reached
>> 85,000 in 1995 and 135,000 in 2004 showing vigorous proliferation
>> activity but unfortunately the Hmong very poorly integrated into the
>> Main Stream Americans. The Reason was mainly cultural but also
>> linguistic. Possibly 70%% of all Hmongs are on Welfare to certain
>> extent. Still now 70 %% of the Hmong (all figures were from various
>> Hmong WebPages) still do not speak fluently English. The most
>> successful Hmongs are Lawyer, Doctors; and the First Indohinese
>> elected to a state senatorial position was a Hmong Lady from
>> Minnesota.
>
>> In Vietnam ,I could not come up with the latest statistic on the
>> population of Hmongs in Vietnam. The number of 231,000 was published
>> in 1967 (Museum of Ethnology , Hanoi, VN). This number increased to
>> 550,000 in 1995 then to 800,000 in 2002 a sizable increase comparable
>> to the increase in the hmong 's population in USA from 1975 to 2004.
>> The amount of rice/grain consumption was used as an indicator of
>> economical status in a dirt poor socialist economy like North
>> Vietnam's pre Doimoi for both Kinh and Hmong population. A t the
>> beginning statistics for rice consumption (around 1970) was 212 Kg/
>> inhabitant/year for the Hmonh and 280 Kg for the kinh. In 1990, it
>> was 302 kg/inhabitant/year for the Hmong. But since 1990, doimoi
>> had visited the Highlands of both South and North Vietnam.
>> Electrification was achieved. Each Hmong Village now has and
>> Elementary school (Dr Eric Cristal of UCLA Fowler Resource center
>> cited that The Rockefeller Foundation, the Ford Foundation, the
>> Government of Denmark, Japan and Sueden were involved in the effort
>> of eradication of Hmong illiteracy ), roads had ben built allowing
>> some, not all of course, successful Hmongs to commute in Motor
>> Cycles. Irrigation with electric pumps allowed 2 or 3 crops per year
>> improving significantly the diet of all Hmongs who do not have to eat
>> yam roots and maize in their diet. Big communal houses were built.
>> Traditional ceremonies were revived with the Gongs present prominently
>> as musical instruments to celebrate good crops of coffee, cashew and
>> pepper.
>> I don't claim hat this is paradise on Earth, Mr Kova, but it is much
>> better what the Hmongs had seen in their History.
>> I hope that Mr Moore and Mr Reese who knew the highlands much more
>> than I do to give a comment on their impression when they visited
>> these folks. I also cross post this post to the Soc. Culy. Hmong and
>> Soc. Culture.laos to hear from their inputs.
>
>> On Feb 24, 10:50 am, Dai Uy
hawaii.rr.com> wrote:>
>
>>>> The Way you treated the Montagnards in Vietnam when you were there
>>>> was you reduced their status to pure mercenaries of a power which did
>>>> not have the staying power. The Population of the Hmong when you were
>>>> there was reduced by half from 1960 to 1975.
>
>>> They were already being subjected to Hanoi's genocidal
>>> policies. Ask yourself why they chose to fight against Hanoi.
>
>>>> You did not created any
>>>> school to educate the Hmongs or provide them with any means of
>>>> subsistence in the Hmong area except the culture of poppies which
>>>> brought drugs in this country of ours killing thousands of Americans
>
>>> Perhaps you should ask the Hmong about that rather than
>>> Hanoi.
>
>>>> Under he VCP rule, the population of all minorities more than tripled
>>>> from 1975 to 2005.
>
>>> The reality is that it has been reduced by roughly 30%%.
>
>>>> Where before there was only Poppy crop to make
>>>> into opium and heroin now there are crops of coffee (Vietnam is the
>>>> second coffee producer in the World) , Cashew and Pepper (second
>>>> producers in the World) with practically all of the new crops fields
>>>> owned by minorities.
>
>>> Do you honestly believe that? Do you think the Kinh moved
>>> to the Highlands to work on those fat cat Montagnard
>>> plantations? The Montagnards have had their lands stolen and
>>> been reduced to sharecroppers and plantation laborers on Kinh
>>> plantations -- and you know it. But that's okay, because they
>>> aren't as good as you, and after all, their grandfathers sided
>>> with
the South Vietnamese.
>
>>>> In addition rice cultivation had increased by
>>>> 200%% in area cultivated and 1000 %% (one thousnd percent) by yield due
>>>> to higher productivity of the higher yield rice species utilized and
>>>> mechanized irrigation possible due to electricity installed in 90%%
>>>> ogfthe mountainous area. Hundreds of high schools teaching the
>>>> minority languages in
>
> ...
>
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