sunrise,
this guy is unfaithful to his alias. he is rather unreasonable, to say
the least.
he's learning quite a few good words from me (i.e. untenable,
conjecture, complacent....).
he may not have animosity, but he does sound somewhat bitter.
the most important thing is that he study and gets his fact straight.
he does not have talent for data analysis and so when he hears quick
and dirty statements against GVP, he draws his evidence backwards from
those claims--quite the opposite of what sane people would do; going
from evidence to conclusion.
he really tried. but just kept putting his foot in his mouth. gvp
fought before the americans came. if gvp left in 1968 in the high heat
of the war, then, yes, i would have to say gvp 'high tailed' out. but
gvp stayed until the very very end.
he really is contradictory reasoning. on one hand, he recognizes
somewhat the human element of gvp--gvp is just a man. yet, he thinks
gvp could click his heels 3 times and spark ships, planes, cars to
evacuate hundreds of thousands of civilians from villages all across
laos. funny.
it's his perogative as you say. for him, this discussion shows more
about him and his immaturity. however, as you can EASILY see, the
'facts' and historical arguments for gvp's credibility during the
secret war is no less than honorable.
i challenge anyone to a debate ANYDAY on claims that gvp was 'lazy'.
gvp, touby, faydang, lyfoung, kaitong... these men were truly our
leaders and brokers for power in Laos. it can be forgiven when
pre-puberty minds make false statements.
SUNRISE wrote:
> it is your prerogative to carry your animosity against GVP anyway you
> want. it just does not make sense however for someone who intelligently
> came out in SCH and announced that all s/he wanted to talk about was
> change, business and the future yet his intellect could not go beyond
> the paradym of those who are envious of GVP's.
>
> txaus luag kawg, cov tub txawj ntxhais ntse no.
>
> reason wrote:
>> I don't have anything against VP personally. Every public figure needs
>> to be examined and debated on. To learn, we need to figure how to
>> improve. All success and failures need to be examine. I'm just doing
>> that. I just compared him to leaders such as Fredrick the Great of
>> Prussia, George Washington, Alexander the Great, etc..
>>
>> Yes, given the situation he may have done his best. It does not
>> matter. He is just one part of the whole community. The community is
>> more important than any one person. We need to keep improving. When we
>> stop evolving, we get hurt. History has shown us that repeatedly.
>> When a leader stops improving, its time to find a replacement. He
>> needs to step down. When any person stays beyond his time there will
>> be problem. He becomes a hinderance to the community as a whole.
>>
>> reason wrote:
>>> Thats the point. No one paid taxes. The previous leaders force the
>>> people to pay taxes. Even though it was the French who made them do
>>> it. Thats why Touby did not want to come to America. He knew he would
>>> be confronted with that issue.
>>>
>>> SUNRISE wrote:
>>>> i'm grateful for the valor sacrifice my predecessors made. To be
>>>> honest, the funding the U.S. gave to us has no justification for our
>>>> services toward their freedom and democracy.
>>>> i did not see anyone force me to pay for taxes as a child in GVP's era;
>>>> maybe you have.
>>>> i received the education our predecessors could only dream of. one good
>>>> performane is better than none and is good enough for me.
>>>>
>>>> reason wrote:
>>>>> I guess people are greatful for the years of funding the US gave us
>>>>> during the war. He was the only leader that did force people to sell
>>>>> their children to pay for taxes. It must be like Joe Namath. Living
>>>>> off one good performance.
>>>>>
>>>>> SUNRISE wrote:
>>>>>> i don't quite understand the reasoning either. donation is most common
>>>>>> from the rich to the poor, but with GVP it is not quite the same.
>>>>>> whereever he goes hmong of both poor and rich welcome him with open
>>>>>> arms and honor. they gave him feast with unprecedent gratificattion.
>>>>>> they praised him and continue to make generous donation. it's rare and
>>>>>> in my view, only a man of greatness and mystical power is being loved
>>>>>> at this magnitude.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> reason wrote:
>>>>>>> I don't quite understand the reasoning, but its funny. Boy, he must be
>>>>>>> a billionaire by now.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> SUNRISE wrote:
>>>>>>>> Reason:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> since Zhen is too pre-occupied by your reasoning and has completely
>>>>>>>> ignored my question of what is the biggest nation, let me just give you
>>>>>>>> the answer. The biggest nation is not China, the U.S., nor Russia,
>>>>>>>> it's DONATION. Hmong is the leading race in donation. where-ever GVP
>>>>>>>> goes, people donate money for him for all purposes...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> reason wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> I do not think GVP 'high tailed.' HE WANTED TO STAY AND FIGHT!!! Ask
>>>>>>>>>> anyone. It was influences from ABOVE him that he decided to leave--he
>>>>>>>>>> left reluctantly. You're too naive that a dragon would not continue to
>>>>>>>>>> fight a war he was born to fight. Go research, there's an interview
>>>>>>>>>> with a CIA operative that explains how difficult it was to get "the Meo
>>>>>>>>>> General to leave."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> An excuse. A captian never jumps ship. He goes down with it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 2. As a leader he should have found a way to fight for the people.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Did GVP not "find" a way to fight for the people (Lao, Hmong, Khmu,
>>>>>>>>>> Mien, etc...) from 1960-1975? If he did not find a way to fight or did
>>>>>>>>>> not desire to protect the soveriegnty of Laos, why, for over a decade,
>>>>>>>>>> did he risk life and limb?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> He got paid to do it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Post Secret-War, is GVP NOT accused of sponsoring resistance from
>>>>>>>>>> abroad against LPDR?
>>>>>>>>>> I think GVP made more than 1 attempt to "find" a way to fight for the
>>>>>>>>>> people. Whether he was successful is another issue. Obviously, his was
>>>>>>>>>> NOT successful, and so you seem to think he is 'lazy' due to his poor
>>>>>>>>>> results.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> A lame attempt to earn a living. People gave him thousands of dollars
>>>>>>>>> for nothing and he is still trying. Thats why the Hmong community do
>>>>>>>>> not trust him or his cronies any more. History is written the way it
>>>>>>>>> is currently because of politics. The truth will come out in time.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Arafat was a kind of hardline freedom fighter in the
>>>>>>>>>> sense that he used strength from weapons to achieve freedom.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Look he achieved freedom but he didn't take it. The Israel gave him
>>>>>>>>> land a homeland. He was too greedy. If the Hmongs were offered that
>>>>>>>>> we would have taken it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Now, let's compare with the Dalai Lama. He also has wealth stashed away
>>>>>>>>>> and is supported by American celebrities and heads of state around the
>>>>>>>>>> world. How much freedom has his wealth afforded the Tibetans? He is a
>>>>>>>>>> kind of soft freedom fighter in the sense that he avoids using weapons
>>>>>>>>>> and opts for politics and world appeal to achieve freedom.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Look pacificist is only good for propaganda for the powerful to keep
>>>>>>>>> the common people down.. Don't play the fool. History has shown it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Now, Arafat rich, Dalai rich, and Arafat guns, and Dalai words. GVP, on
>>>>>>>>>> the other hand, 'rich' and guns and words. All three in one hand, NO
>>>>>>>>>> EFFECT, NO FREEDOM! Are all three 'lazy'? No. The answer is not so
>>>>>>>>>> easily captured by 'lazy'.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Once you jump ship it is over.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Money is necessary, but insufficient for freedom to win.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I agreed it is the will. Money is only a tool.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Help will never come--at least not military help and at least not in
>>>>>>>>>> time before all the resistance fighters have died.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Did you know the Chinese offer to help the Hmong in the late '70s?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The freedom fighters cannot be blamed either. They have helped
>>>>>>>>>> themselves to near extinction. Against all odds, they made a valiant
>>>>>>>>>> and COURAGEOUS effort to win. They were not 'lazy' as you may think.
>>>>>>>>>> They reinvented themselves plenty to fight for freedom, but perhaps
>>>>>>>>>> there are other factors outside your 'lazy theory' to account for why
>>>>>>>>>> they did not succeed.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Look. They lost the leader. And he said he would return. They waited
>>>>>>>>> for him. If not they would have accepted the Chinese's help and Laos
>>>>>>>>> would have been Hmong's. Twice the French wanted to give us Laos we
>>>>>>>>> turn it down. You don't see that in the history book.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 5. Instead he fled and thousands die for his stupidity.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I think you misspoke again. He evacuated and thousands lived following
>>>>>>>>>> him into Thailand. The only "stupidity" precipitating was of those who
>>>>>>>>>> thought it would be safe to remain behind either to live under LPDR
>>>>>>>>>> rule or have possible victory in fighting for freedom.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That was a clean up job by the US.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Had GVP not "fled", how many MORE Hmong would have died due to the
>>>>>>>>>> FALSE sense of security emanating from his stay? I think it is probable
>>>>>>>>>> that perhaps you and me would still be trapped in some part of the
>>>>>>>>>> jungle should our parents be lucky enough to survive (me is a post-1975
>>>>>>>>>> child), and if not, would be having tea with the King and Phranya in
>>>>>>>>>> dab teb lawm.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Check above about the Chinese help.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ALL my grandfather's brothers (4 of them) DIED staying in Laos under
>>>>>>>>>> communist rule. How many families have stories like mine? Guess which
>>>>>>>>>> male remains from my great-grandfather's family? My grandfather. Why?
>>>>>>>>>> He chose to cross the Mekong. Simple as that. Is that stupidity? Is
>>>>>>>>>> preserving your life stupidity? Is subjecting yourself to injustice
>>>>>>>>>> "smart"?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Check above.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 6. What a coward.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If GVP is a coward, then no one can ever be courageous or hope to
>>>>>>>>>> achieve any inkling of courage. Tell me, how many battles did GVP
>>>>>>>>>> fight? How many assasinations did he survive? How many bullets went
>>>>>>>>>> into GVP's flesh? In the flames of war GVP lived for over a decade.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> A soldier getting paid to do his duty only. When the money stops he
>>>>>>>>> disappeared.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Okay, now, let's focus just a little bit on you. Did you fight? Where
>>>>>>>>>> were you stationed? How many bullets ripped through your flesh? Did you
>>>>>>>>>> stand outside the fire and furry of war, or did you immolate yourself
>>>>>>>>>> in the hellish depths of the Secret War?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Secret War is still going on if you did not know. Who said its over.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> GVP and the soldiers who fought in Laos to protect were no less
>>>>>>>>>> courageous AND no more cowardice than any soldier who ever fought or
>>>>>>>>>> will ever fight.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> GVP yes. The soldiers were not coward. Don't try to miss use the
>>>>>>>>> word.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 7. He had no plan in the event the US pull out.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There is no plan for failure. There is only a plan for victory.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yes that is why the US is in trouble in Iraq. If they had plan in the
>>>>>>>>> event things went wrong things would be different. Same with GVP.
>>>>>>>>> Murphy's Law - anything that can go wrong will go wrong.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>>> evacuation 'plan' was improvised following domestic pressure in the US
>>>>>>>>>> to pull out. How do you think refugee camps were created without a
>>>>>>>>>> 'plan' (albeit improvised)? The only plan GVP had was to protect Laos.
>>>>>>>>>> He stepped up to the plate to meet the challenge of the century for
>>>>>>>>>> Laos. Do you think a man without intestinal fortitude can manifest the
>>>>>>>>>> history and legacy GVP has left in Laos? I think we Hmong are so
>>>>>>>>>> fortunate to have been blessed with GVP
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Do you know his nick name? Pov "the Liar."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Paj Cai as examples of our
>>>>>>>>>> people's love for freedom. In this past century, we have had NOT 1, but
>>>>>>>>>> AT LEAST 2 examples of Hmong individuals leading the people of Laos
>>>>>>>>>> against foreign invasion and for freedom (I would even add Touby to the
>>>>>>>>>> ranks of these guys).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Do you know his nick name? Pov "the Liar."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> yog horizontal line xwb hais txog vim li cas hmoob thiaj li poob
>>>>>>>>>> tebchaws.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Don't get brainwash. Organizational theory explains the failure of a
>>>>>>>>> people or country. The failures lays at the top. Calm down and talk
>>>>>>>>> facts. Lets debate not personal attack.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Everyone is part of a bigger group. The leader of the group is
>>>>>>>>> responsible for all good and bad. All these leaders are to be blame
>>>>>>>>> for our current situation everywhere.
