> Jules Wrote:
> "I really don't need to sit and
> talk to any Houngan in order to know about Voodoo. Like I said before,
> I
> come from a family that was heavily involved in Voodoo activities. I
> left
> Haiti when I was 18 years old, and because my aunt was a mambo, I not
> only
> saw voodoo ceremonies with my own eyes, but I was there to listen to
> the
> conversations, that occurred between the organizers and participants,
> even
> after the ceremonies were over, and people talked about what happened,
> and
> what this or that spirit said, or did, and so on".
>
> Excellent, I appreciate and respect the fact that you have have formed
> your views on Vodou based on lived experiences.
>
> Jules Wrote:
> "You wrote about real Houngan, or Bocor, or Mambo, as opposed to
> charlatans.
> First of all. there are two types of each of these. There is the one
> you go
> to in order to get things done, whether you want to find out the
> circumstances of someone's untimely death, or you want to guarantee a
> safe
> travel to the US, or you want "justice" done in case you feel that you
> were
> done wrong, you want to win the lottery, or for any other reason you
> can
> think of. These are mediums, who work on a case by case basis, and do
> their
> work by calling on the spirit, or spirits the serve, who possesses them
> during the encounter, and interacts with the client individually, and
> most
> of the time even the medium is not even aware of the encounter because
> it
> occurred while he/she (the medium) was under possession.
>
> And then there are those (I supposed that's where Racine fits (in case
> she's
> not a fake) who simply summon the same spirits during Voodoo ceremonies
> that
> are open to anyone who wants to attend. The reason for those more
> elaborate
> ceremonies are the same. They are organized to summon spirits to come
> and
> possess certain participants, who are known as choals, or horses
> because
> they have previously experienced possession. And when the spirits come
> down,
> they normally ask why they were called, and what services are asked of
> them,
> and people make their demands according to the fetishes of these
> spirits.
> They are also involved in other types of voodoo ceremonies involving
> groups,
> are very aware of each loa's fetishes, as to their favorite food,
> fragrances, alcoholic beverages etc...".
>
> No disagreement with what you've described above. The disctinction is
> often made between the Houngan or Manbo who supposedly serve with their
> right hand (summon the spirits in the search of good) and the Bòkò
> who summons harmful spirits for the sake of revenge. But, I can not
> really tell you whether this is a real disctinction that occurs in
> practice or whether all these folks are interchangeable. Does the
> Catholic priest who delves into the occult become someone lese or is it
> all part of his role as a Catholic priest? It's a strange area where
> perception and reality are not so easily distinguisheable.
>
> You wrote:
> "Where I disagree with you is that the fake ones are far less
> harmful to your spiritual wellbeing than the genuine ones. It is very
> easy
> to tell the fake ones, because they are the ones who charge enormous
> sums of
> money for their services, while the genuine ones will settle for
> whatever
> you can offer The fake ones rob you of your money, the real ones rob
> you of
> your soul".
>
> I understand where you are coming from but, I disagree with your
> analysis because honestly, I believe that 99%% of these ceremonials are
> the expression of natural phenomenon that we (human beings) simply have
> not yet been able to decode and demystify. I leave a 1%% out there
> because I do believe that humans are not the only intelligent beings in
> the universe and there are instances where there seems to be real
> interference in our mondane affairs. For instance, I find the
> experience of the Dogon,
> http://www.sacredsites.com/africa/mali/dogon.html or the illusions
> practiced by David Blane and Cris Angel (
> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6616406655978150142&pr=goog-sl
> ), quite compelling. In the first instance, we are dealing with the
> fact that a small group of technologically-challenged people happened
> to know about the existence of stars surrounding Sirius, apparently
> without the use of a telescope. No logical explanation has been found
> for this. In the second instance, we are dealing with master
> illusionists who do things that seem to be impossible. But, as
> described in the llink above, the fact that the explanation is unknown
> to most. does not mean it doesnt exist.
>
>
> Jules wrote: "I am not a practicing Christian, and I do not practice
> Christianity. There
> is nothing that I do, or do not do...The only prerequisite to becoming
> a Christian, is to come to a
> conclusion that one is utterly sinful, and guilty of God's judgment,
> which is eternal damnation".
>
> I do not understand this philosophy Jules. You seem to suggest that
> "guilt" is a centerpiece of Christianity. What is a newborn child
> "guilty" about? What is the point of "eternal damnation" - for a
> creature made by an all knowing all capable god ? How different is this
> theology from all the other human-made - jealous, insecure, vengeful
> gods of human history of of modern-day science fiction?
>
> You wrote: "A Christian is not a good person, he is only a
> forgiven one. He is forgiven because he has done all that is required
> in
> order to be forgiven, which is putting one's faith and trust in the
> capable
> hands of our Lord Jesus Christ, who alone bore our sins and nailed them
> to
> the cross on which he died for us".
>
> Jules, will you agree with me that the world did not always "know"
> about Jesus-Christ. In fact, during the time the human being described
> in the Bible as Jesus, son of Mary, everyone knew him not as
> Jesus-Christ (or Messiah Jesus) but simply as Yeshua (Jesus).
> Jesus-Christ is a religious identity that came into popular discourse
> after the creation of the Christian theology and all its dogma, many
> hundreds of years after the death of Jesus. Terms like the Lord
> Jesus-Christ would surprise even Jesud himself who never knew of it
> during his lifetime.
>
> "Please follow with me if you can in this encounter between our Lord
> and Nicodemus":
>
> I certainly will....
>
> "John 3:1-21 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler
> of
> the Jews: The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we
> know
> that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles
> that
> thou doest, except God be with him. Jesus answered and said unto him,
> Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot
> see
> the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born
> when he
> is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be
> born?
> Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born
> of
> water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That
> which
> is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is
> spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The
> wind
> bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst
> not
> tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is
> born of
> the Spirit. Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things
> be?
> Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and
> knowest
> not these things? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do
> know,
> and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. If I
> have
> told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I
> tell
> you of heavenly things? And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he
> that
> came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. And as
> Moses
> lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be
> lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have
> eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only
> begotten
> Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have
> everlasting
> life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but
> that
> the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not
> condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he
> hath
> not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is
> the
> condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness
> rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that
> doeth
> evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds
> should be
> reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds
> may be
> made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
>
> Basically, Nicodemus wanted to know who it is that he is dealing with,
> because he felt that Jesus was not just an ordinary man, so he asked
> him:
> who are you? And Jesus answered: "unless a man is born again, he cannot
> see
> the kingdom of God" A response which did not seem to directly answer
> his
> question. So he probed "How is a man supposed to do that?" Jesus
> knowing
> that Nicodemus was not just anybody, but a leader of the Pharisees, an
> expert in the Law of Moses sent him to
>
> Numbers 21:5-9: And the people spake against God, and against Moses,
> Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness?
> for
> there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our soul loatheth
> this
> light bread. And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and
> they bit
> the people; and much people of Israel died. Therefore the people came
> to
> Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD,
> and
> against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from
> us.
> And Moses prayed for the people. And the LORD said unto Moses, Make
> thee a
> fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that
> every
> one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. And Moses made
> a
> serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if
> a
> serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he
> lived."
>
> I read the whole thing, and of course this was not my first time at it.
> But, before we draw too many conclusions, do you take literaly the
> Moses and Serpents story? If so, why don't modern-day Christians and
> Jews continue to invest in erecting brass serpents to protect their
> nation rather than spending billions in armament and blowing human
> beings to pieces in the violent wars that ravage our world?
>
> Jules wrote:
>
> "Jesus pointed him to this passage to show him that just as the people
> of
> Israel were able to look up on the lifted bronze serpent, and be healed
> and
> not die in the wilderness, the same way He will be lifted on a cross so
> that
> those who believe in him will live and not go to hell."
>
> Yes, I understand this interpretation and yes it makes sense within
> Christian theology. But, Jules, we must remember that these writings
> did not always exist. An important to ask oneself is this: what came
> first, the theology or the writings made to fit the theology?
>
> Jules wrote: "My point is that it is a matter of life and death. God
> has not made any other way to reconcile with him other than his son".
>
> In human-made theologies, Jesus-Christ is not the first and certainly
> not the ONLY "son of god". As argued by these sceptics "Christians
> contend all of the following pre-Christian sun-gods are mythological:
> Hercules, Osiris, Bacchus, Mithra, Hermes, Prometheus, Perseus, and
> Horus. Yet, all: (1) allegedly had gods for fathers and virgins for
> mothers; (2) had their births announced by stars and celestial music;
> (3) were born on the 25th of December (Solstice); (4) had tyrants
> trying to kill them when they were infants; (5) met with violent
> deaths; and (6) rose from the dead". These coincidences require a
> logical explanation Jules. And the first one that comes to mind, is
> that over the course of developing the Christian theology, the authors
> borrowed quite a bit from older belief systems. And there is nothing
> surprising about that at all.
>
>
> Jules wrote: "It is a matter of great urgency that we all get to know
> and put our trust in him before we die, or else we burn in Hell for
> eternity".
>
> Now, here is a refreshing thought. What kind of heaven will that be for
> those who are saved? To be spending eternity with a "god" who is so
> insecure and bloodthirsty he shall have your loved ones (who are
> supposedly also his creation) burn forever while you party up in
> heaven. Only humans could have imagined such an outcome - not a loving
> God.
>
> Jules wrote: "There is no personal earthly gain for us to spread the
> gospel of
> our Lord, we do it out of love for our brothers and sisters who are
> lost and
> headed to Hell, just like we used to be".
>
> I can understand this motivation. I used to also believe that everyone
> who deoes not believe in the Jesus I was brought up learning about,
> were going straight to hell and I remember praying to save the
> Catholics, the Protestants who weren't Episcapalian like me and of
> course for the Vodouisant who were all going straight to hell. But,
> really Jules, this story is not very coherent. I also remember praying
> at the soccer stadium so that Racing Club Haitien could win games that
> I considered so very important to me at the time. Of course, the
> opposite team also had people praying for a different outcome.
>
> Jules wrote: " the Holy spirit who indwells us commands us to preach
> the good news
> of salvation, and eternal life available to all who put their faaith in
> the
> Lord Jesus Christ".
>
> Honestly Jules, the composition of the human being that I am remains a
> mystery to me. I am excited about learning more and more about what
> actually constitutes my spirit (the non-physical component of my
> being). I understand that not everyone accepts the current limitations
> of human knowledge and they want a ready-made explanation for how we
> came on this planet (as a species) and how the end of this world is set
> to happen. To me, these are interesting areas of study and discovery. I
> do believe in the existence of a Creator because that's the theory
> which makes more sense to me, at this time. But, I as far as I
> understand, the existence or non-existence of a Creator does not depend
> on my acknowledgement or knowledge of this. So, I feel no pressure to
> pretend one way or the other. Of course some human beings consider that
> a "sin" and ample justification for me to be condemned to burn in the
> eternal flame. But, apparently not all Christians believe in the
> existence of hell.
>
> See http://www.what-the-hell-is-hell.com/HellSiteIntro.htm
>
> Jules wrote: "You speak of our Lord as if he was just a good man. A
> Palestinian of good
> character who lived two thousand years ago, and who had said some very
> good
> things, and gave some very good speeches. First of all Jesus was not a
> Palestinian, he is a Jew".
>
> According to the best reading I have done so far, there more likelihood
> that yes, he is a real person who was born and lived in the
> geographical area known as Palestine (thus he was a Palestinian), and
> who practiced Judaism, like his parents (thus he was a Jew).
>
> Jules wrote: "He is the only human being whose ancestry can be
> traced back all the way to Adam".
>
> Adam is a mythological figure not a historical person Jules. Many human
> populations have their mythologies by which they describe the arrival
> of our species on this planet. Adam, is simply the one invented by the
> people of the Judeo-Christian tradition. Just an aside about the
> ancestries of Yeshua, as presented in the Christian Bible. This is one
> of the many areas where the ible prooves to be the work of fallible
> human beings - and NOT a divine revelation of an infallible God. There
> are two contradictory genealogies provided for Yeshuah in the Bible. I
> present this is some detail in my book "Viv Bondye Aba Relijyon!" where
> I also deal with the problems posed by differing numbers of generations
> in the two accounts. You can also check these links
> http://www.rationalchristianity.net/jesus_genealogy.html
>
> Jules wrote: "He was more than just a good man, he is God
> almighty who lived on this earth as a man in order to undo the sins of
> our
> grand parents, Adam and Eve".
>
> My grandparents were Jean Elissaint, Constanie, Anelise and Emmanuel.
> I am able to trace back a few generations but obviously not too far.
> The point i am making is that, as a collective, the human species does
> not yet possess sufficient information to trace its genealogy
> accurately. However, we know that any genealogy which portends that we
> have only been on this earth for 6000 years is inaccurate. There are
> human remains that are much older than that.
>
> http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/11/19/tech/main656621.shtml
>
>
> Jules wrote: "He is either who he said he was: God Almighty,
> or he was the greatest lunatic who ever lived. You cannot say on one
> hand
> that he was a great man, and at the same time say that is all he was.
> He
> said that "I and the father are one, anyone who has seen me, has seen
> the
> father".
>
> Jules to be honest, we do not KNOW that he said anything. We know that
> a book written by men over several decades, claim that he has said a
> number of things, including your quote above. We also KNOW that there
> are several other books, written by equally fallible men who claim that
> he said a number of other things that are not mentioned in the "Bible".
> We also know, that it was April 8, 1546, at the Council of Trent, that
> a set of men, using the threat of violence impose the 66 books of the
> Bible. So, if we deal with what we know, it is not difficult to see why
> it is safer to treat everyone with respect and love rather than passing
> judgement about who will burn in the eternal flame and who will
> partying all eternity to the tune of Mozart and Beethoven in a boring
> as hell heaven. (sorry for the sarcasm !)
>
> Jules wrote: "We do not worship spirits. There are no freelancing godly
> spirits
> out there, doing their thing".
>
> Do you believe they exist and or "evil" or do you not beleive in their
> existence, when you also write:
> "There is only the Holy Spirit, and he lives in
> the heart of the believer forever, from the moment of salvation".
>
> .... All other
> spirits are demons".
>
> Well, okay, you beleive there are demons. But who created these demons?
>
>
> Man, all I know is that things that go beyond this planet are
> mysterious to me but, from the glimpse I get they appear very
> fascinating. In fact, I am ignorant of so many fascinating things on
> this planet, that I would not let any fear of so-called "demons" stop
> me from learning as much as I can about this beatiful creation,
> including the marvelous human beings that have exciting stories they
> live and invent - including throught their religions.
>
> Afterall, don't we all only spend a few decades on this planet and then
> we disappear to go where NO ONE HAS EVER COME BACK to tell how it is.
> So, let's enjoy the ride brother and do as much "good" as we understand
> it to be during the passage. Therefore I would still sit down with a
> Priest, a Pastor, a Houngan, Manbo or a Rabbi anytime to try to
> understand what they beleive. We can all learn something new, every
> day. Se pase n ap pase !
>
> Jaf
>