Jules Wrote:
"I really don't need to sit and
talk to any Houngan in order to know about Voodoo. Like I said before,
I
come from a family that was heavily involved in Voodoo activities. I
left
Haiti when I was 18 years old, and because my aunt was a mambo, I not
only
saw voodoo ceremonies with my own eyes, but I was there to listen to
the
conversations, that occurred between the organizers and participants,
even
after the ceremonies were over, and people talked about what happened,
and
what this or that spirit said, or did, and so on".

Excellent, I appreciate and respect the fact that you have have formed
your views on Vodou based on lived experiences.

Jules Wrote:
"You wrote about real Houngan, or Bocor, or Mambo, as opposed to
charlatans.
First of all. there are two types of each of these. There is the one
you go
to in order to get things done, whether you want to find out the
circumstances of someone's untimely death, or you want to guarantee a
safe
travel to the US, or you want "justice" done in case you feel that you
were
done wrong, you want to win the lottery, or for any other reason you
can
think of. These are mediums, who work on a case by case basis, and do
their
work by calling on the spirit, or spirits the serve, who possesses them
during the encounter, and interacts with the client individually, and
most
of the time even the medium is not even aware of the encounter because
it
occurred while he/she (the medium) was under possession.

And then there are those (I supposed that's where Racine fits (in case
she's
not a fake) who simply summon the same spirits during Voodoo ceremonies
that
are open to anyone who wants to attend. The reason for those more
elaborate
ceremonies are the same. They are organized to summon spirits to come
and
possess certain participants, who are known as choals, or horses
because
they have previously experienced possession. And when the spirits come
down,
they normally ask why they were called, and what services are asked of
them,
and people make their demands according to the fetishes of these
spirits.
They are also involved in other types of voodoo ceremonies involving
groups,
are very aware of each loa's fetishes, as to their favorite food,
fragrances, alcoholic beverages etc...".

No disagreement with what you've described above. The disctinction is
often made between the Houngan or Manbo who supposedly serve with their
right hand (summon the spirits in the search of good) and the Bòkò
who summons harmful spirits for the sake of revenge. But, I can not
really tell you whether this is a real disctinction that occurs in
practice or whether all these folks are interchangeable. Does the
Catholic priest who delves into the occult become someone lese or is it
all part of his role as a Catholic priest? It's a strange area where
perception and reality are not so easily distinguisheable.

You wrote:
"Where I disagree with you is that the fake ones are far less
harmful to your spiritual wellbeing than the genuine ones. It is very
easy
to tell the fake ones, because they are the ones who charge enormous
sums of
money for their services, while the genuine ones will settle for
whatever
you can offer The fake ones rob you of your money, the real ones rob
you of
your soul".

I understand where you are coming from but, I disagree with your
analysis because honestly, I believe that 99%% of these ceremonials are
the expression of natural phenomenon that we (human beings) simply have
not yet been able to decode and demystify. I leave a 1%% out there
because I do believe that humans are not the only intelligent beings in
the universe and there are instances where there seems to be real
interference in our mondane affairs. For instance, I find the
experience of the Dogon,
http://www.sacredsites.com/africa/mali/dogon.html or the illusions
practiced by David Blane and Cris Angel (
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6616406655978150142&pr=goog-sl
), quite compelling. In the first instance, we are dealing with the
fact that a small group of technologically-challenged people happened
to know about the existence of stars surrounding Sirius, apparently
without the use of a telescope. No logical explanation has been found
for this. In the second instance, we are dealing with master
illusionists who do things that seem to be impossible. But, as
described in the llink above, the fact that the explanation is unknown
to most. does not mean it doesnt exist.

Jules wrote: "I am not a practicing Christian, and I do not practice
Christianity. There
is nothing that I do, or do not do...The only prerequisite to becoming
a Christian, is to come to a
conclusion that one is utterly sinful, and guilty of God's judgment,
which is eternal damnation".

I do not understand this philosophy Jules. You seem to suggest that
"guilt" is a centerpiece of Christianity. What is a newborn child
"guilty" about? What is the point of "eternal damnation" - for a
creature made by an all knowing all capable god ? How different is this
theology from all the other human-made - jealous, insecure, vengeful
gods of human history of of modern-day science fiction?

You wrote: "A Christian is not a good person, he is only a
forgiven one. He is forgiven because he has done all that is required
in
order to be forgiven, which is putting one's faith and trust in the
capable
hands of our Lord Jesus Christ, who alone bore our sins and nailed them
to
the cross on which he died for us".

Jules, will you agree with me that the world did not always "know"
about Jesus-Christ. In fact, during the time the human being described
in the Bible as Jesus, son of Mary, everyone knew him not as
Jesus-Christ (or Messiah Jesus) but simply as Yeshua (Jesus).
Jesus-Christ is a religious identity that came into popular discourse
after the creation of the Christian theology and all its dogma, many
hundreds of years after the death of Jesus. Terms like the Lord
Jesus-Christ would surprise even Jesud himself who never knew of it
during his lifetime.

"Please follow with me if you can in this encounter between our Lord
and Nicodemus":

I certainly will....

"John 3:1-21 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler
of
the Jews: The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we
know
that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles
that
thou doest, except God be with him. Jesus answered and said unto him,
Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot
see
the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born
when he
is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be
born?
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born
of
water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That
which
is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is
spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The
wind
bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst
not
tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is
born of
the Spirit. Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things
be?
Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and
knowest
not these things? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do
know,
and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. If I
have
told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I
tell
you of heavenly things? And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he
that
came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. And as
Moses
lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be
lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have
eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only
begotten
Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have
everlasting
life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but
that
the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not
condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he
hath
not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is
the
condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness
rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that
doeth
evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds
should be
reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds
may be
made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Basically, Nicodemus wanted to know who it is that he is dealing with,
because he felt that Jesus was not just an ordinary man, so he asked
him:
who are you? And Jesus answered: "unless a man is born again, he cannot
see
the kingdom of God" A response which did not seem to directly answer
his
question. So he probed "How is a man supposed to do that?" Jesus
knowing
that Nicodemus was not just anybody, but a leader of the Pharisees, an
expert in the Law of Moses sent him to

Numbers 21:5-9: And the people spake against God, and against Moses,
Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness?
for
there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our soul loatheth
this
light bread. And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and
they bit
the people; and much people of Israel died. Therefore the people came
to
Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD,
and
against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from
us.
And Moses prayed for the people. And the LORD said unto Moses, Make
thee a
fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that
every
one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. And Moses made
a
serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if
a
serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he
lived."

I read the whole thing, and of course this was not my first time at it.
But, before we draw too many conclusions, do you take literaly the
Moses and Serpents story? If so, why don't modern-day Christians and
Jews continue to invest in erecting brass serpents to protect their
nation rather than spending billions in armament and blowing human
beings to pieces in the violent wars that ravage our world?

Jules wrote:

"Jesus pointed him to this passage to show him that just as the people
of
Israel were able to look up on the lifted bronze serpent, and be healed
and
not die in the wilderness, the same way He will be lifted on a cross so
that
those who believe in him will live and not go to hell."

Yes, I understand this interpretation and yes it makes sense within
Christian theology. But, Jules, we must remember that these writings
did not always exist. An important to ask oneself is this: what came
first, the theology or the writings made to fit the theology?

Jules wrote: "My point is that it is a matter of life and death. God
has not made any other way to reconcile with him other than his son".

In human-made theologies, Jesus-Christ is not the first and certainly
not the ONLY "son of god". As argued by these sceptics "Christians
contend all of the following pre-Christian sun-gods are mythological:
Hercules, Osiris, Bacchus, Mithra, Hermes, Prometheus, Perseus, and
Horus. Yet, all: (1) allegedly had gods for fathers and virgins for
mothers; (2) had their births announced by stars and celestial music;
(3) were born on the 25th of December (Solstice); (4) had tyrants
trying to kill them when they were infants; (5) met with violent
deaths; and (6) rose from the dead". These coincidences require a
logical explanation Jules. And the first one that comes to mind, is
that over the course of developing the Christian theology, the authors
borrowed quite a bit from older belief systems. And there is nothing
surprising about that at all.

Jules wrote: "It is a matter of great urgency that we all get to know
and put our trust in him before we die, or else we burn in Hell for
eternity".

Now, here is a refreshing thought. What kind of heaven will that be for
those who are saved? To be spending eternity with a "god" who is so
insecure and bloodthirsty he shall have your loved ones (who are
supposedly also his creation) burn forever while you party up in
heaven. Only humans could have imagined such an outcome - not a loving
God.

Jules wrote: "There is no personal earthly gain for us to spread the
gospel of
our Lord, we do it out of love for our brothers and sisters who are
lost and
headed to Hell, just like we used to be".

I can understand this motivation. I used to also believe that everyone
who deoes not believe in the Jesus I was brought up learning about,
were going straight to hell and I remember praying to save the
Catholics, the Protestants who weren't Episcapalian like me and of
course for the Vodouisant who were all going straight to hell. But,
really Jules, this story is not very coherent. I also remember praying
at the soccer stadium so that Racing Club Haitien could win games that
I considered so very important to me at the time. Of course, the
opposite team also had people praying for a different outcome.

Jules wrote: " the Holy spirit who indwells us commands us to preach
the good news
of salvation, and eternal life available to all who put their faaith in
the
Lord Jesus Christ".

Honestly Jules, the composition of the human being that I am remains a
mystery to me. I am excited about learning more and more about what
actually constitutes my spirit (the non-physical component of my
being). I understand that not everyone accepts the current limitations
of human knowledge and they want a ready-made explanation for how we
came on this planet (as a species) and how the end of this world is set
to happen. To me, these are interesting areas of study and discovery. I
do believe in the existence of a Creator because that's the theory
which makes more sense to me, at this time. But, I as far as I
understand, the existence or non-existence of a Creator does not depend
on my acknowledgement or knowledge of this. So, I feel no pressure to
pretend one way or the other. Of course some human beings consider that
a "sin" and ample justification for me to be condemned to burn in the
eternal flame. But, apparently not all Christians believe in the
existence of hell.

See http://www.what-the-hell-is-hell.com/HellSiteIntro.htm

Jules wrote: "You speak of our Lord as if he was just a good man. A
Palestinian of good
character who lived two thousand years ago, and who had said some very
good
things, and gave some very good speeches. First of all Jesus was not a
Palestinian, he is a Jew".

According to the best reading I have done so far, there more likelihood
that yes, he is a real person who was born and lived in the
geographical area known as Palestine (thus he was a Palestinian), and
who practiced Judaism, like his parents (thus he was a Jew).

Jules wrote: "He is the only human being whose ancestry can be
traced back all the way to Adam".

Adam is a mythological figure not a historical person Jules. Many human
populations have their mythologies by which they describe the arrival
of our species on this planet. Adam, is simply the one invented by the
people of the Judeo-Christian tradition. Just an aside about the
ancestries of Yeshua, as presented in the Christian Bible. This is one
of the many areas where the ible prooves to be the work of fallible
human beings - and NOT a divine revelation of an infallible God. There
are two contradictory genealogies provided for Yeshuah in the Bible. I
present this is some detail in my book "Viv Bondye Aba Relijyon!" where
I also deal with the problems posed by differing numbers of generations
in the two accounts. You can also check these links
http://www.rationalchristianity.net/jesus_genealogy.html

Jules wrote: "He was more than just a good man, he is God
almighty who lived on this earth as a man in order to undo the sins of
our
grand parents, Adam and Eve".

My grandparents were Jean Elissaint, Constanie, Anelise and Emmanuel.
I am able to trace back a few generations but obviously not too far.
The point i am making is that, as a collective, the human species does
not yet possess sufficient information to trace its genealogy
accurately. However, we know that any genealogy which portends that we
have only been on this earth for 6000 years is inaccurate. There are
human remains that are much older than that.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/11/19/tech/main656621.shtml

Jules wrote: "He is either who he said he was: God Almighty,
or he was the greatest lunatic who ever lived. You cannot say on one
hand
that he was a great man, and at the same time say that is all he was.
He
said that "I and the father are one, anyone who has seen me, has seen
the
father".

Jules to be honest, we do not KNOW that he said anything. We know that
a book written by men over several decades, claim that he has said a
number of things, including your quote above. We also KNOW that there
are several other books, written by equally fallible men who claim that
he said a number of other things that are not mentioned in the "Bible".
We also know, that it was April 8, 1546, at the Council of Trent, that
a set of men, using the threat of violence impose the 66 books of the
Bible. So, if we deal with what we know, it is not difficult to see why
it is safer to treat everyone with respect and love rather than passing
judgement about who will burn in the eternal flame and who will
partying all eternity to the tune of Mozart and Beethoven in a boring
as hell heaven. (sorry for the sarcasm !)

Jules wrote: "We do not worship spirits. There are no freelancing godly
spirits
out there, doing their thing".

Do you believe they exist and or "evil" or do you not beleive in their
existence, when you also write:
"There is only the Holy Spirit, and he lives in
the heart of the believer forever, from the moment of salvation".

.... All other
spirits are demons".

Well, okay, you beleive there are demons. But who created these demons?

Man, all I know is that things that go beyond this planet are
mysterious to me but, from the glimpse I get they appear very
fascinating. In fact, I am ignorant of so many fascinating things on
this planet, that I would not let any fear of so-called "demons" stop
me from learning as much as I can about this beatiful creation,
including the marvelous human beings that have exciting stories they
live and invent - including throught their religions.

Afterall, don't we all only spend a few decades on this planet and then
we disappear to go where NO ONE HAS EVER COME BACK to tell how it is.
So, let's enjoy the ride brother and do as much "good" as we understand
it to be during the passage. Therefore I would still sit down with a
Priest, a Pastor, a Houngan, Manbo or a Rabbi anytime to try to
understand what they beleive. We can all learn something new, every
day. Se pase n ap pase !

Jaf