Newtonian limit difficulties of General Relativity (linear regime)
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Newtonian limit difficulties of General Relativity (linear regime)         


Author: Juan R. González-Álvarez
Date: May 1, 2008 11:30

I am working in relationship between General Relativity and Newton
theory.

My work consists of two parts. The first part addresses the common
claim that geodesic equation of General Relativity reduces to Newton law
of motion in the linear limit, i.e. g_ab = \eta_ab + h_ab when ||h|| is
small enough to ignore quadratic and higher orders.

Take for example Carroll lecture notes available online:

http://lanl.arXiv.org/abs/gr-qc/9712019v1

Carroll starts from geodesic equation (4.9) and derives equation (4.19),
which he identifies with Newton equation (4.4) after using (4.20).

During the derivation Carroll uses the linear constraint (4.13).

A more rigorous analysis does not support Carroll conclusions.

Carroll is not computing the linear geodesic equation of motion but
'inventing' a non-geometrical equation [see below].

The equation of motion in the linear limit is a = 0. Therefore, the
equation of motion of General Relativity does not coincide with that
from Newtonian gravity in the linear regime.

For both the zeroth and the linear regimes of General Relativity bodies
have to move on straight lines.
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Re: Newtonian limit difficulties of General Relativity (linear regime)         


Author: Juan R. González-Álvarez
Date: May 3, 2008 04:30

"Juan R." González-Álvarez wrote on Thu, 01 May 2008 13:25:06 -0600:
> Carroll is assuming that left hand side may be approximated by
>
> + \lambda \delta a^\mu
>
> and the right hand side by
>
> \lambda \delta \Gamma_{\rho\sigma}^\mu c^2
>
> See his (4.19).

Mistake. I did mean that Carroll is assuming that left hand side may be
approximated by



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Re: Newtonian limit difficulties of General Relativity (linear regime)         


Author: Juan R. González-Álvarez
Date: May 6, 2008 03:11

"Juan R." González-Álvarez wrote on Thu, 01 May 2008 13:25:06 -0600:

As said in original message, conventional derivations of the Newtonian
limit of General Relativity (GR) are not correct.

If one takes consistently the linear limit of GR, one rigorously obtains
the final equation

a = 0

instead the incorrect equation showed in textbooks and lecture notes.

I have discussed this part of my work with an expert on curved spacetime
equations of motion, Eric Poisson [1]. Eric confirms that a = 0 in the
linear regime of GR:

(\blockquote
Since the energy-momentum tensor is already of first-order, in the
linearized theory the conservation equations must be written down with
the Minkowski metric, and this implies that the matter cannot have
gravitational interactions. Or as you point out, particles would have to
move on straight lines.
)
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Re: Newtonian limit difficulties of General Relativity (linear regime)         


Author: Oh No
Date: May 6, 2008 03:41

Thus spake Juan R. González-Álvarez canonicalscience.com>
>"Juan R." González-Álvarez wrote on Thu, 01 May 2008 13:25:06 -0600:
>
>As said in original message, conventional derivations of the Newtonian
>limit of General Relativity (GR) are not correct.
>
>If one takes consistently the linear limit of GR, one rigorously
>obtains the final equation
>
>a = 0
>
>instead the incorrect equation showed in textbooks and lecture notes.
>
>I have discussed this part of my work with an expert on curved
>spacetime equations of motion, Eric Poisson [1]. Eric confirms that a =
>0 in the linear regime of GR:
>
>(\blockquote
> Since the energy-momentum tensor is already of first-order, in the
> linearized theory the conservation equations must be written down with ...
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Re: Newtonian limit difficulties of General Relativity (linear regime)         


Author: Juan R. González-Álvarez
Date: May 6, 2008 07:02

Oh No wrote on Tue, 06 May 2008 05:38:53 -0600:
>>I have discussed this part of my work with an expert on curved spacetime
>>equations of motion, Eric Poisson [1]. Eric confirms that a = 0 in the
>>linear regime of GR:
>>
>>(\blockquote
>> Since the energy-momentum tensor is already of first-order, in the
>> linearized theory the conservation equations must be written down with
>> the Minkowski metric, and this implies that the matter cannot have
>> gravitational interactions. Or as you point out, particles would have
>> to
>> move on straight lines.
>>)
>
> I am not sure what you mean by a=0,

Do not know that zero acceleration mean?
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Re: Newtonian limit difficulties of General Relativity (linear regime)         


Author: Oh No
Date: May 6, 2008 08:32

Thus spake Juan R. González-Álvarez canonicalscience.com>
>Oh No wrote on Tue, 06 May 2008 05:38:53 -0600:
>
>>>I have discussed this part of my work with an expert on curved spacetime
>>>equations of motion, Eric Poisson [1]. Eric confirms that a = 0 in the
>>>linear regime of GR:
>>>
>>>(\blockquote
>>> Since the energy-momentum tensor is already of first-order, in the
>>> linearized theory the conservation equations must be written down with
>>> the Minkowski metric, and this implies that the matter cannot have
>>> gravitational interactions. Or as you point out, particles would have
>>> to
>>> move on straight lines.
>>>)
>>
>> I am not sure what you mean by a=0,
>
>Do not know that zero acceleration mean?
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Re: Newtonian limit difficulties of General Relativity (linear regime)         


Author: Juan R. González-Álvarez
Date: May 7, 2008 05:32

Oh No wrote on Tue, 06 May 2008 10:05:12 -0600:
>>He had no problem to accept my finding about weak fields. Why do you
>>have one?
>
> Perhaps you did not make clear to him that you were confusing the linear
> limit with the weak field limit.

If you have no serious argument then I will reply this irrelevant and
false one. I will copy and paste fragments of my communication with him:

"Several textbooks state that linearized General Relativity"

(\blockquote
But the condition \partial^\mu T_{\mu\nu} = 0 implies that test
bodies move on geodesics of the flat metric n_{\mu\nu}; i.e, if one stay
consistently within the linear approximation, one predicts that test
bodies are unaffected by gravity.
)

"... specific issue of linearized equations of motion."

"I have tried to derive that test bodies are unaffected by gravity within
the linear approximation ..."
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Re: Newtonian limit difficulties of General Relativity (linear regime)         


Author: Oh No
Date: May 7, 2008 07:00

Thus spake Juan R. González-Álvarez canonicalscience.com>
>Oh No wrote on Tue, 06 May 2008 10:05:12 -0600:
>
>>>He had no problem to accept my finding about weak fields. Why do you
>>>have one?
>>
>> Perhaps you did not make clear to him that you were confusing the linear
>> limit with the weak field limit.
>
>If you have no serious argument then I will reply this irrelevant and
>false one. I will copy and paste fragments of my communication with him:

It is not much help. Incoherent and does not make your case.
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Re: Newtonian limit difficulties of General Relativity (linear regime)         


Author: Juan R. González-Álvarez
Date: May 8, 2008 05:34

Oh No wrote on Wed, 07 May 2008 08:55:12 -0600:
> It is not much help. Incoherent and does not make your case.

It would be if you read them. Fragments contain the terms "linear" or
"linearized" about ten times. That would be enough to understand i am
computing the linear limit of the geodesic equation of motion.

The title of this thread (chosen by me of course) also says "linear
regime". Four authors of a total of four understood i was speaking about
linearized GR. That seems to indicate i am writing fine and your
accusation had no basis.
>>He confirmed that if you apply condition (4.13) the geodesic equation
>>(4.9) reduces to
>>
>>a = 0
>
> The geodesic equation always reduces to a=0 with a suitable choice of
> coordinates or definition of a. This is not inconsistent with equation
> 4.19 in a different choice of coordinates. There is nothing wrong with
> the derivation of 4.19 from 4.13 in the reference you give.
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Re: Newtonian limit difficulties of General Relativity (linear regime)         


Author: Oh No
Date: May 8, 2008 07:21

Thus spake Juan R. González-Álvarez canonicalscience.com>
>Oh No wrote on Wed, 07 May 2008 08:55:12 -0600:
>
>> It is not much help. Incoherent and does not make your case.
>
>It would be if you read them. Fragments contain the terms "linear" or
>"linearized" about ten times. That would be enough to understand i am
>computing the linear limit of the geodesic equation of motion.

You keep saying that. But the limit you are calculating is still not the
Newtonian limit, and nor is it the weak field limit, so you have no
basis on which to say the text books are wrong.

Regards

--
Charles Francis
moderator sci.physics.foundations.
charles (dot) e (dot) h (dot) francis (at) googlemail.com (remove spaces and
braces)

http://www.teleconnection.info/rqg/MainIndex
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