Ethanol production in modern agriculture increases global warming; proof by internal energy
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Ethanol production in modern agriculture increases global warming; proof by internal energy         


Author: a_plutonium
Date: Aug 11, 2006 12:20

gzuckier@snail-mail.net wrote:
> a_plutonium wrote:
>> z wrote:
>>> Archimedes Plutonium wrote:
>>>
>>>> It does not take a rocket scientist to see that if the Ethanol-lovers
>>>> claim of 1 gallon gasoline produces 1.67 gallons of ethanol, then why
>>>> is not Europe buying up the USA surplus and why is a bushel of corn
>>>> still cost only 3.02 when that bushel can convert to 2.5 gallons
>>>> ethanol.
>>>
>>> Just a newbie here, but one reason might be that ethanol has only 1/2
>>> the energy content of gasoline, i.e. will deliver 1/2 the mpg all
>>> things being equal, so even 1.67 gal of ethanol/gal of gasoline is
>>> still a losing proposition.
>>
>> Can you elaborate on that. Is it enthalpy. Is it the number of hydrogen
>> bonds between gasoline compared...
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34 Comments
Re: Ethanol production in modern agriculture increases global warming;         


Author: Eeyore
Date: Aug 11, 2006 13:08

a_plutonium wrote:
> Perhaps the above does not account
> for the fact that ethanol is water based molecule

No it isn't !
> and that some water
> content is still in the mix. Or that in the combustion of ethanol in
> engines combines with the ambient water in the air and thus hinders the
> combustion. So a loss in energy due to the fact that ethanol is water
> based whereas gasoline is not water based.

You are truly a complete idiot.

Graham
no comments
Re: Ethanol production in modern agriculture increases global warming; proof by internal energy         


Author: Frank
Date: Aug 11, 2006 15:07

> You are truly a complete idiot.
>
> Graham

I'd say close but not complete. The latest study cited in C&E News
says there is a net energy gain of 25% in ethanol and about 50% for
biodiesel. Not to mention, that to supply all our fuel needs from
these sources, we'd have to use all the farm land in the US.

Frank
no comments
Re: Ethanol production in modern agriculture increases global warming;         


Author: Eeyore
Date: Aug 11, 2006 15:19

Frank wrote:
>> You are truly a complete idiot.
>>
>> Graham
>
> I'd say close but not complete. The latest study cited in C&E News
> says there is a net energy gain of 25% in ethanol

Cite ? Don't think making ethanol fron corn is the best route btw.
> and about 50% for biodiesel.

Eh ? You *can* use vegetable oil directly into an engine ! Do you know how much
it costs ? This simply illustrates the vacuous nature of much uninformed
criticism of bio-fuels.
> Not to mention, that to supply all our fuel needs from
> these sources, we'd have to use all the farm land in the US.

That's an entirely different matter. Whoever said you had to do that ?

Graham
no comments
Re: Ethanol production in modern agriculture increases global warming; proof by internal energy         


Author: Oz
Date: Aug 11, 2006 23:06

Frank dol.net> writes
>I'd say close but not complete. The latest study cited in C&E News
>says there is a net energy gain of 25% in ethanol and about 50% for
>biodiesel. Not to mention, that to supply all our fuel needs from
>these sources, we'd have to use all the farm land in the US.

My figs suggest a lower gain from ethanol from maize, and frankly at 25%
its not worth doing.

The 50% may refer to soya bean oil because for oilseed rape (canola) my
figs suggest a return in excess of 200%, which is well worth doing.

--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.
1 Comment
Re: Ethanol production in modern agriculture increases global warming;         


Author: Dan Bloomquist
Date: Aug 11, 2006 23:20

Oz wrote:
> The 50% may refer to soya bean oil because for oilseed rape (canola) my
> figs suggest a return in excess of 200%, which is well worth doing.

For the very few....
no comments
Re: Ethanol production in modern agriculture increases global warming; proof by internal energy         


Author: Oz
Date: Aug 12, 2006 00:27

Dan Bloomquist lakeweb.com> writes
>
>
>Oz wrote:
>
>> The 50% may refer to soya bean oil because for oilseed rape (canola) my
>> figs suggest a return in excess of 200%, which is well worth doing.
>
>For the very few....

Maybe, however its a contribution to supply.

--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.
4 Comments
Re: Ethanol production in modern agriculture increases global warming; proof by internal energy         


Author: Frank
Date: Aug 12, 2006 05:04

C&E News articles are mostly on line. Editorial that discusses this
is. Go look it up.
If you are Willie Nelson driving around in south Texas, you can use
vegetable oil in your diesel bus. In cold climates, you'll have a tank
full of gel. Biodiesel is nothing more than coverting the oils
glycerol esters to methyl esters. I have the impression that you are
what we chemists call a non-technical person.

Frank
no comments
Re: Ethanol production in modern agriculture increases global warming; proof by internal energy         


Author: Oz
Date: Aug 12, 2006 05:48

Frank dol.net> writes
>If you are Willie Nelson driving around in south Texas, you can use
>vegetable oil in your diesel bus.

OK.
Also for the tropics worldwide, eg the far east, eg much of china.
>In cold climates, you'll have a tank
>full of gel.

Doubtless there are chemical fixes to this (as with 'winter' diesel) or
you can warm the tank.
>Biodiesel is nothing more than coverting the oils
>glycerol esters to methyl esters.

Yes. But there must be an energy cost to this.
>I have the impression that you are
>what we chemists call a non-technical person.

Who is? You omitted to post any quoted whatsoever.

--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.
no comments
Re: Ethanol production in modern agriculture increases global warming;         


Author: Eeyore
Date: Aug 12, 2006 06:51

Oz wrote:
> Frank dol.net> writes
>>I'd say close but not complete. The latest study cited in C&E News
>>says there is a net energy gain of 25% in ethanol and about 50% for
>>biodiesel. Not to mention, that to supply all our fuel needs from
>>these sources, we'd have to use all the farm land in the US.
>
> My figs suggest a lower gain from ethanol from maize, and frankly at 25%
> its not worth doing.
>
> The 50% may refer to soya bean oil because for oilseed rape (canola) my
> figs suggest a return in excess of 200%, which is well worth doing.

*YOUR* figures mean SFA.

Graham
no comments
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