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Group: nashville.general · Group Profile
Author: David MoffittDavid Moffitt Date: Oct 10, 2007 06:31
"Olin" comcast.net> wrote in message
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| "David Moffitt" stompingweasels.org> wrote in message
| news:13gom17a7q28n8c@corp.supernews.com...
| >
| > "Olin" comcast.net> wrote in message
| > news:qsmdnVVeF45m1ZHanZ2dnUVZ_s-pnZ2d@comcast.com...
| > |
| > | "David Moffitt" stompingweasels.org> wrote in message
| > | news:13gofhuolmgk887@corp.supernews.com...
| > | >
| > | > "Olin" comcast.net> wrote in message
| > | > news:JZednXFPCv4OuZHanZ2dnUVZ_h6vnZ2d@comcast.com...
| > | > |
| > | > | "David Moffitt" stompingweasels.org> wrote in message
| > | > | news:13gnkf1t7rgmg72@corp.supernews.com...
| > | > | >
| > | > | > "Olin" comcast.net> wrote in message
| > | > | > news:Xu6dnXtc3JdDYpfanZ2dnUVZ_gydnZ2d@comcast.com...
| > | > | > |
| > | > | > | "David Moffitt" stompingweasels.org> wrote in
message
| > | > | > | news:13glr95d82n2l92@corp.supernews.com...
| > | > | > | >
| > | > | > | > "Olin" comcast.net> wrote in message
| > | > | > | > news:5eudnQRkSLrR7JfanZ2dnUVZ_tqtnZ2d@comcast.com...
| > | > | > | > |
| > | > | > | > | "David Moffitt" stompingweasels.org> wrote in
| > message
| > | > | > | > | news:13gko111urcsa68@corp.supernews.com...
| > | > | > | > | >
| > | > | > | > | > "Olin" comcast.net> wrote in message
| > | > | > | > | > news:uK2dnTyb06PnCpTanZ2dnUVZ_rGrnZ2d@comcast.com...
| > | > | > | > | > |
| > | > | > | > | > | "David Moffitt" stompingweasels.org> wrote
in
| > | > message
| > | > | > | > | > | news:13gcm4kkg4nmj11@corp.supernews.com...
| > | > | > | > | > | >
| > | > | > | > | > | > "Olin" comcast.net> wrote in message
| > | > | > | > | > | > news:YOGdnX41K_UrqpvanZ2dnUVZ_h-vnZ2d@comcast.com...
| > | > | > | > | > | > |
| > | > | > | > | > | > | "David Moffitt" stompingweasels.org>
wrote
| > in
| > | > | > message
| > | > | > | > | > | > | news:13gbh74qlbt3359@corp.supernews.com...
| > | > | > | > | > | > | >
| > | > | > | > | > | > | > "Olin" comcast.net> wrote in message
| > | > | > | > | > | > | >
| > news:RtednZ6SwuULMZjanZ2dnUVZ_sKqnZ2d@comcast.com...
| > | > | > | > | > | > | > |
| > | > | > | > | > | > | > | "David Moffitt" stompingweasels.org>
| > wrote
| > | > in
| > | > | > | > message
| > | > | > | > | > | > | > | >
| > | > | > | > | > | > | > | > Walk into any emergency room tonight and see
| > who
| > | > is
| > | > | > | > sitting
| > | > | > | > | > there
| > | > | > | > | > | > | > waiting
| > | > | > | > | > | > | > | > to
| > | > | > | > | > | > | > | > be seen. Who do you think is picking up the
| > tab
| > | > for
| > | > | > the
| > | > | > | > | > healthcare
| > | > | > | > | > | > of
| > | > | > | > | > | > | > all
| > | > | > | > | > | > | > | > of
| > | > | > | > | > | > | > | > the illegals you sitting there? You are.
They
| > are
| > | > well
| > | > | > | > aware
| > | > | > | > | > that
| > | > | > | > | > | > they
| > | > | > | > | > | > | > | > will
| > | > | > | > | > | > | > | > get their healthcare free. (to them)
| > | > | > | > | > | > | > | >
| > | > | > | > | > | > | > |
| > | > | > | > | > | > | > | And you know what?
| > | > | > | > | > | > | >
| > | > | > | > | > | > | > I worked in healthcare. And you know what about
it
| > | > beyong
| > | > | > | > | > kneejerking?
| > | > | > | > | > | > | >
| > | > | > | > | > | > |
| > | > | > | > | > | > | Too many years covering health issues as a
reporter
| > and
| > | > way
| > | > | > too
| > | > | > | > many
| > | > | > | > | > | > years
| > | > | > | > | > | > | working in and around the health insurance
industry.
| > | > | > | > | > | >
| > | > | > | > | > | > I sold insurance before going to college and getting
| > an
| > | > honest
| > | > | > | > | > vocation.
| > | > | > | > | > | >
| > | > | > | > | > |
| > | > | > | > | > | Yet, these are the people who are currently in charge
of
| > | > health
| > | > | > | > care,
| > | > | > | > | > and
| > | > | > | > | > | apparently the people many would like to see remain in
| > | > charge
| > | > of
| > | > | > | > health
| > | > | > | > | > | care.
| > | > | > | > | > |
| > | > | > | > | > | Curious, that.
| > | > | > | > | >
| > | > | > | > | > I don't like it either. You want to just change the
| > | > controller.
| > | > | > | > | >
| > | > | > | > |
| > | > | > | > | And you apparenty don't.
| > | > | > | >
| > | > | > | > Not to federal government control. They cannot run the VA
| > Hospital
| > | > | > system
| > | > | > | > much less all of healthcare.
| > | > | > | >
| > | > | > |
| > | > | > | Then, who? What you have now is effectively the same thing,
and
| > it
| > | > just
| > | > | > | might be easier (stress might) to effect pressure on lawmakers
| > with
| > | > some
| > | > | > | semblance of federal control. Number one, the insurance
| > companies
| > | > are
| > | > | > still
| > | > | > | gonna be mostly in control, but as we've all seen they're now
| > | > totally
| > | > in
| > | > | > | control and effecting every single bugaboo the opponents of
any
| > kind
| > | > of
| > | > | > | national insurance plan, system or whatever you want to call
it,
| > | > | > virtually
| > | > | > | without oversight from anybody.
| > | > | >
| > | > | > There is a tremendous amount of federal oversight now. The
federal
| > | > | > government controls when and where you can open a hospital and
how
| > | > many
| > | > | > beds
| > | > | > it can contain.
| > | > | >
| > | > |
| > | > | Yet, they've done diddly squat to force carriers to live up to the
| > | > policies
| > | > | they sell. Matter of fact, they've relaxed regulation to the point
| > that
| > | > even
| > | > | many business leaders are starting to call for some semblance of
| > | > regulation
| > | > | again.
| > | > |
| > | > | > |
| > | > | > | Ya really think the free market has any impact there? Not with
| > the
| > | > | > insurance
| > | > | > | giants holding their fingers in both ears and crying, "We
can't
| > hear
| > | > | > | youuuuuu!"
| > | > | > |
| > | > | > | They've effectively convinced even the providers that the
whole
| > | > problem
| > | > | > is
| > | > | > | all those sick people just overusing the resource.
| > | > | > |
| > | > | > | Take your pick... it's gonna either be increased federal
| > regulation
| > | > or
| > | > | > still
| > | > | > | more control by an industry that has shown clearly that it
cares
| > | > | > absolutely
| > | > | > | nothing about its policy holders.
| > | > | >
| > | > | > There is no easy answer but having the federal government in
total
| > | > control
| > | > | > is not the answer.
| > | > | >
| > | > |
| > | > | I've never said it was. What I have specifically said is that the
| > | > current
| > | > | system is broken, and I don't see any evidence that any leg of the
| > | > current
| > | > | system is listening to much of anybody. Mostly, they're all just
| > | > lobbying
| > | > to
| > | > | protect their own particular turf.
| > | >
| > | > SOP for everone.
| > | >
| > |
| > | Sure, but not everyone has the lobby resources of the hospitals,
| > insurance
| > | carriers, pharmaceuticals and the AMA.
| >
| > Discounting unions of course.
| >
|
| Man, even at their highest point, labor unions have never had the voice
"big
| bidness" has enjoyed these past few years.
|
| But it's further comparing apples to oranges to compare labor lobbying to
| the fight going on over higher medical costs, higher insuranc premiums and
| significantly lowered benefits on those policies, when the fact of the
| matter is they've got a long history of reneging on promises they've made
in
| writing.
|
| > |
| > | > |
| > | > | > |
| > | > | > | Hell, the pharmaceuticals (hardly known for their altruism)
and
| > | > Wal-Mart
| > | > | > | (along with a few other pharmacies) are doing far more to help
| > | > control
| > | > | > | medical costs than the insurance carriers, hospitals and
| > doctors,
| > | > and
| > | > | > | they're NOT doing it by just yelling, "Deny! Deny! Deny!"
| > | > | > |
| > | > | > | What you have is a system that is broken, and it's not likely
to
| > | > ever
| > | > be
| > | > | > | fixed by allowing it to police itself.
| > | > | > |
| > | > | > | What level of public (as in government if you prefer) is
| > required,
| > I
| > | > | > have
| > | > | > no
| > | > | > | idea, but continuing to allow the fox to guard the henhouse is
| > | > nothing
| > | > | > more
| > | > | > | than and admission that Richard Nixon was right when he said
how
| > | > much
| > | > he
| > | > | > | loved managed care plans which increased profit by giving less
| > care.
| > | > | >
| > | > | > Managed healthcare has saved the consumer a lot of money. Would
| > you
| > | > like
| > | > | > an
| > | > | > example?
| > | > | >
| > | > |
| > | > | Oh, I can give you hundreds of examples of how it's saved
insurance
| > | > | carriers, perhaps, billions. Here's one. In a work-related injury,
| > even
| > | > a
| > | > | pre-existing condition is compensable IF it exacerbates that
| > | > pre-existing
| > | > | condition. Yet, carriers are getting away with calling those
| > instances
| > | > | age-related and simply denying the claim. Under current Tennessee
| > law,
| > | > | that's about the end of the line.
| > | >
| > | > Not really. I sued--- won--- and now retired. They said my knee
| > problem
| > | > was
| > | > a pre-existing condition that was exacerbated. There was one problem
| > with
| > | > their position---- They were the insurer with the first injury to my
| > knee
| > | > also.
| > | >
| > |
| > | How long ago.
| >
| > March 27, 2007
| >
| >
| > Not at all likely to happen in Tennessee today.
| >
| > Nashville Tn. 37215
| >
| > Today, their
| > | being the insurer in your first knee injury will likely be considered
| > | grounds to deny on a pre-existing condition.
| >
| > Didn't work.
| >
|
| You are truly one of the lucky ones. I could cite you dozens of cases
where
| just the opposite resulted, even with competent counsel.
I guess it is knowing how to kick the right door. It didn't hurt to file for
disability with the state and SS.
|
| > |
| > | Look, I went through this, though I fought teeth and nail. In a recent
| > wreck
| > | (I was a passenger) that was work-related, I banged a knee on the
| > dashboard.
| > | My boss made me go to a doc-in-the-box to get checked out. Well, I
knew
| > what
| > | was going to happen. And, it did. The entire exam consisted of forty
| > five
| > | minutes of filling out paperwork and killing time, and precisely
| > thirteen
| > | seconds of the "doctor" squeezing my knee and telling me I was fine
and
| > | dandy.
| > |
| > | He even admitted to watching me from behind a one-way mirror, and
| > further
| > | admitted he watched ALL his workers' comp patients in that fashion.
| > |
| > | Further, I decided later when the knee started hurting seriously to at
| > least
| > | get my orthopedist to check it out a little further. Two calls to the
| > | carrier to secure a referral, and to this date, three years later, I
| > have
| > | not yet heard from them.
| >
| > What Doc in the box did you go to? Did you get an MRI on the knee? You
did
| > have the option of seeing your primary physician for your initial care.
| > Many
| > people aren't aware because your company wants the cheaper Doc in a box
| > they
| > have contracted with.
| >
|
| Not even an x-ray. I'm not exaggerating, the doc squeezed the knee and
| pronounced it fine. Yeah, I could have gone to my doc on my own, but it's
| not unreasonable to expect full coverage for a work-related injury, in
spite
| of the fact that case managers routinely tell patients their expectations
| are too high, that restoration to pre-accident condition is unreasonable.
|
| In some cases, the injury is severe enough to be life changing and that's
| not gonna be possible.
Ditto!
Even in those cases, I see paperwork crossing my desk
| every day where the carrier is trying to reneg on even lifetimes medicals
| for an injury.
The state and SS doesn't like that.
|
| > |
| > | I even informed my boss of that little fact, and neither my supervisor
| > nor
| > | our branch manager could have cared less.
| > |
| > | > And it's not much of a line to begin with.
| > | > | You, the injured worker, have essentially no say in what kind of
| > health
| > | > | care, if any, you get after being hurt. Those decisions are
entirely
| > up
| > | > to
| > | > | your employer and their insurance carrier.
| > | >
| > | > Not really. Lawyers love cases like that. they even advertise it on
| > TV.
| > | >
| > |
| > | Yes. I've seen the commercials. I've also read recent Tennessee law,
and
| > the
| > | amounts they can hope to collect are miniscule compared to what they
| > were
| > | even three or four years ago.
| > |
| > | Trust me on this... you have no choice today if you're injured on the
| > job.
| >
| > I did. Maybe you lacked the knowledge how to squeak the right way.
| >
|
| No. In my case, the injury was not as severe as yours, and I just lost
| interest in the game. A co-worker was hurt in the same wreck and wound up
| having to have an operation on her knee. She's still paying off the
co-pay,
| because she went with her private insurance... three years later.
OUCH!
|
| > | The doctors are presented to you in a panel of usually three, and
those
| > are
| > | the ONLY doctors your workers' comp carrier will even consider paying
| > for.
| >
| > True. I recommend TOA of orthopaedic problems.
| >
| > |
| > | The one good thing is you can opt out of the system and actually get
| > better
| > | care and better payment going through your private insurance.
| > |
| > | > |
| > | > | In one case here, a guy was treated with nothing but physical
| > therapy
| > | > for
| > | > a
| > | > | torn rotator cuff, only to be told after that year that HE had
| > waited
| > | > too
| > | > | long and there was nothing they could do for him. He was released
| > from
| > | > care
| > | > | and his employer immediately fired him..
| > | >
| > | > Yep! I'm collecting from an employer right now for that very thing.
| > When
| > I
| > | > was 22 I got 4 ribs broken welding on some of those Apts you see on
| > Due
| > | > West
| > | > that back up to I65. The doctor returned me to work for light duty
and
| > my
| > | > employer laid me off. After contacting my lawyer I collected my pay
| > for
| > 6
| > | > months until my ribs were completely healed. Lawyers love cases like
| > that.
| > | > they even advertise it on TV.
| > | >
| > |
| > | When you were 22. The case I cited occured less than five years ago,
and
| > | it's what current Tennessee law (and most other states for that
matter)
| > | allow.
| >
| > My last one was in March.
| > |
| > | The days of a workers' comp injury resulting in a lifelong gravy train
| > are
| > | over, even in completely legitimate cases. I could cite you fifteen or
| > | twenty cases where a person is totally disabled and the carrier is
still
| > | coming back, looking for ways to pay for less and less care.
| >
| > That's typical business for any company.
| >
| > |
| > | > |
| > | > | Yes, I'm quite aware of what "managed care" has come to mean all
too
| > | > often.
| > | >
| > | > Managed care also prevent hospitals from running un-necessary tests.
| > In
| > | > the
| > | > 80's a person over the age of 50 going into the hospital got a full
| > blood
| > | > profile, an upper GI study, gallbladder and a barium enema. When I
| > worked
| > | > in
| > | > the hospital in the early 80's we has an elderly man come in who had
| > fell
| > | > on
| > | > some ice outside his home. He substained a partial fracture of his
| > right
| > | > elbow and was to be kept overnight for observation. He got out of
the
| > | > hospital 3 weeks later without his gallbladder. He never had a
problem
| > | > with
| > | > it but his scan showed he had stones. I've got a whole stack of
| > examples
| > I
| > | > saw over the years. Are you aware that the government healthcare
| > system
| > | > called Medicare is managed care?
| > | >
| > |
| > | Yes, I'm well aware of that as well. It's another one of those
promises
| > to
| > | veterans that has never been kept. Actually, there's a very good
| > military
| > | retiree program called CHAMPUS, but the day you become eligible for
| > | Medicare, you get kicked off.
| >
| > Correct.
| >
| > |
| > | And, of course, managed care can be most beneficial, especially in
| > avoiding
| > | unnecessary tests. Unfortunately, it's also become most beneficial in
| > | helping carriers avoid paying for completely necessary tests, and to
| > deny
| > | coverage because you're simply "too old" to waste the resource on.
| >
| > That is a commonly occurs in socialized medicine. People are found to be
| > too
| > old for dialysis and it is withdrawn.
| >
|
| And there's certainly a time to abandon such methods. Being, as you say, a
| hospice nurse, you know this, but that time is rather obvious and it's
often
| NOT at the moment an insurance carrier grows weary of paying the bills it
| obligated itself to pay by selling the policy in the first place.
Correct.
|
| > |
| > | >
| > | >
| > | > |
| > | > | > |
| > | > | > | And the folks who continue to oppose national health care
| > because
| > | > they
| > | > | > fear
| > | > | > | not being able to choose the doctor they want really need to
| > read
| > | > their
| > | > | > | policies. It's entirely possible right now that this will
happen
| > to
| > | > you,
| > | > | > | even with a doctor you've spent years doing business with.
| > | > | > |
| > | > | > | Frankly, I'd be satisfied with legislation that simply
requires
| > | > | > insurance
| > | > | > | carriers to live by the words in their policies. I'd even
allow
| > them
| > | > to
| > | > | > | continue to write those policies in the impossibly convoluted
| > | > legalese
| > | > | > they
| > | > | > | have employed for years. There are lawyers who can read that
| > crap
| > | > and
| > | > | > will
| > | > | > | gladly oppose them in court that already know how to beat them
| > at
| > | > their
| > | > | > own
| > | > | > | game.
| > | > | > |
| > | > | > | Of course, much of our governmental effort these past several
| > years
| > | > has
| > | > | > been
| > | > | > | to pass legislation limiting your ability to fight your
carrier,
| > | > even
| > | > | > when
| > | > | > | it can be proven beyond even a shadow of doubt, never mind the
| > legal
| > | > | > terms,
| > | > | > | "preponderance of the evidence" or "reasonable doubt," that
| > either
| > | > the
| > | > | > | carrier, the doctor, the hospital or some combination screwed
| > the
| > | > pooch.
| > | > | > |
| > | > | > | And even the "get something for nothing" argument has now
| > carried
| > | > over
| > | > | > to
| > | > | > | patients expecting their policies to cover what they say
they'll
| > | > cover,
| > | > | > so
| > | > | > | I'm guessing the current plan is to pay your premiums and
never
| > mind
| > | > | > getting
| > | > | > | anything paid for, as stipulated in the policy, at all.
| > | > | > |
| > | > | > | Why would one NOT want to change that controller?
| > | > | >
| > | > | > I'll make it simple: Under the current system if the hospital or
| > | > doctor
| > | > | > makes a mistake can you sue them? Yes. Your insurance company
will
| > | > even
| > | > | > supply a lawyer. Under the current system if the VA hospital or
| > doctor
| > | > | > makes
| > | > | > a mistake can you sue them? No. Do you really want to lower
| > healthcare
| > | > | > costs? Push for tort reforms. (the lawyer lobby will not hear of
| > it)
| > | > | >
| > | > |
| > | > | Yet, there was a recent court ruling that held punitive damages
| > could
| > | > not
| > | > be
| > | > | used to punish a company that had been found liable in a
particular
| > | > claim.
| > | >
| > | > Do you mean the lady that was paid just 6 million last week or the
one
| > who
| > | > collected millions from McDonalds because she was stupid enough to
try
| > and
| > | > hold a hot cop of coffee with her crotch and drive?
| > | >
| > |
| > | No. This one was from a hurricane case. But, interesting that you
bring
| > up
| > | the Mickey D's lady. Are you aware that she was simply one of 800
| > potential
| > | plaintiffs in that particular case? Or, that the customers of that
| > | particular Mickey D's had been complaining about the temperature of
that
| > | coffee for quite some time before taking their complaints to the
Health
| > | Department, who measured the temperature at just under 200 degrees at
| > time
| > | of serving.
| >
| > Gosh and just think coffee is made by boiling water.
| > |
|
| Yep. And routinely served at about 140 degrees or so... not nearly at the
| boiling point.
|
| > | That particular Mickey D's refused requests of even their customers,
so
| > that
| > | lawsuit was about the only recourse left, and the lady that so many
have
| > had
| > | so much fun with over the years got third degree scald burns in her
| > crotch!
| >
| > People also complain that their coffee is too cold. Holding a cup of
| > coffee
| > in your crotch is stupid any way you look at it.
| >
|
| Sigh. You still miss the point.
No I didn't.
That store's CUSTOMERS had complained and
| been rebuffed to the point of going to the Health Department. She was not
| the only injury resulting from that coffee at that store. There was a
pretty
| clear pattern there.
True. If I thought their coffee was too hot I wouldn't buy coffee there. As
Blackie would say ~DUH~!
|
| >
| > |
| > | > |
| > | > | Say what?
| > | > |
| > | > | The abuses of tort law abound, but tort reform that severely
limits
| > an
| > | > | injured party's ability to collect damages is like using a sixteen
| > pound
| > | > | sledge as a tack hammer.
| > | >
| > | > I'm talking about limiting what you can sue for. Ok a sterilized
| > mouse
| > in
| > | > a
| > | > can of green beans is gross but shouldn't be worth 10 millon to the
| > person
| > | > who found it.
| > | >
| > |
| > | And for every case where a ridiculous sum of money is litigated,
another
| > | several hundred very similar cases are flat thrown out of court. And,
| > many
| > | of the settlements are made simply because the corporation doesn't
want
| > to
| > | be bothered with fighting the battle.
| >
| > Lawyers depend on it.
| >
| > |
| > | A much better method of limiting frivilous lawsuits, IMHO, would be
| > | legislation that allows a counter-suit on those grounds. If you, the
| > | original plaintiff, lose, you not only lose your lawsuit, but you get
to
| > pay
| > | the corporation's legal bills.
| >
| > Give the man a cigar!
| >
|
| Yet, we chose, and you apparently still believe, the wiser path was to
limit
| what you can sue for.
|
| > |
| > | Might even include the plaintiff's lawyer in there too while you're at
| > it,
| > | and with that consideration, the number of just flat-out ridiculous
| > lawsuits
| > | would disappear overnight without limiting anybody's right to sue at
| > all.
| > |
| > | If ya wanna take up the court's time, you best bring a good case, or
it
| > | might wind up costing you big time.
| > |
| > | >
| > | > |
| > | > | As you noted in another post, the simplest way to avoid a long
wait
| > in
| > | > the
| > | > | ER for a dog bite is to avoid getting bitten by a dog. Same could
be
| > | > said
| > | > | for the docs, hospitals and pharmacies that get sued over and over
| > and
| > | > over
| > | > | and over, and lose more often than not, driving up the cost of
| > insurance
| > | > for
| > | > | docs that are doing business in a forthright and professional
| > manner.
| > | >
| > | > Go and try and find an OB doctor. There are very few. Why? Because
| > people
| > | > sue them daily if little Suzy is born with a hangnail.
| > | >
| > |
| > | Oh yes, I've heard all the crodocile tear stories. I also know several
| > | OB/GYNS still in thriving practices, in spite of the high cost of
| > | malpractice insurance, who don't get sued at all.
| >
| > Ask them what their fee is and what their malpractice insurance is.
| >
| > |
| > | > |
| > | > | Wanna avoid a lawsuit? Don't screw up and leave crap behind in a
| > | > surgical
| > | > | wound.
| > | >
| > | > True.
| > | >
| > | > Don't give a patient the wrong drugs, causing her skin to slough off
| > | > | and ending in her death (a fairly recent Nashville case).
| > | >
| > | > Yep that was a nasty one. Hidden allergies can be nasty. Medical
| > people
| > | > are
| > | > human also and all humans make mistakes. Our mistakes are more messy
| > and
| > | > mean deep pockets.
| > | >
| > |
| > | But, this one wasn't hidden. If memory serves, the drug in question
was
| > | Sulfa, and her doctor knew about it. Her pharmacy, Walgreens, knew
about
| > it,
| > | and apparently none of them bothered to check their lists and by the
| > time
| > | she knew what was going on it was way past too late.
| >
| > Sad case. That one deserved a law suit. Personally I wouldn't have taken
| > the
| > medicine. I've been prescribed the wrong medicines myself and refused to
| > take them. Being informed never hurts.
| >
|
| Certainly. But, having a long history with the doc and that pharmacy, she
| took the medication. Misplaced trust to be sure, but also an obvious
screwup
| on the part of two of her health care pros.
True.
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