Today, Justin made these interesting comments ...

Incentives of any kind, even "fleet discounts" I didn't know
about - thanks, BTW - are not needed by the Japanese and Koreans,
although there really are secret incentives going on, it just
isn't blasted all over the paper. We are talking about the Big
Three here and not any one company, but Ford, GM, and Chrysler
have been playing a pissing in their own soup incentive war for
several years. It is like dope, once you start, it is damn tough
to stop, especially when what you sell isn't competitive. Now,
before everyone goes berserk at my last, many - not all - Big
Three products ARE world-class competitive but still do not have
anything at all that perception in may people's eyes. It is
really tough to overcome a bad rep you developed over decades.

I thought about it more today, Justin. Gee, Golly, Whiz, I CAN
pop for an SRT8, get my employee discount, a $2,500 rebate and a
lower cost 10,500 24 month lease, so why not? Well, it appears
that they are pretty slippy slidy in the wet and probably
undrivable in the snow, and I don't think I want to spend $46K
MSRT on a car I have to keep in the garage if someone spits on
the road. Sure would be nice to have a Detonation Yellow Super
Bee, though. And, again,for them who'd like to jump on my bones
for denegrating my company's products, I don't see any other
really hot performance cars on the roads in the wet or the snow,
either.

Sure, why not! I am not in the biz of selling cars, I've never
been much of the horse trader type that will literally say or do
anything to make a sale. But, if someone expresses an interest, I
will offer them what help I am allowed to give. It is then up to
them. Also, Justin, while I will not disparage my products, if
you ask me a specific question, as you did, if I know for sure or
have an inkling, I will say so, even if it is negative PR. There
is no point in trying to hide this stuff, and it makes it all
that much more difficult to overcome decades long bad reps.And,
whether I like it or not, I am wed at the hip to GM and Ford
because many prospective buyers lump cars from all three in the
category of American "junk", whether it is deserved or not.

Yes. The dealer does because they have to pay floor plan, and the
car maker does because the dealer won't order more new cars if
the older ones don't sell. Most people don't realize that car
companies book a sale and its revenue NOT when it is sold to an
end customer, but when it is "sold" to a dealer. So, yes,
incentives vary according to what was going on at the time a
given vehicle is built, as I've talked about in the past, but if
the iron starts growing weeds from sitting on the lot all year,
yes, the car companies will provide incentives to the dealer, and
sometimes the customer. Car companies also withhold a part of the
dealer profit that is returned with "interest" if the dealer
meets or exceeds it sales targets. This is called, aptly enough,
dealer holdback. The amount varies, but is around 1 or 2 %% of
invoice, and this gets stripped off with a true employee discount
of Employee Choice number.

I talk mostly about Chrysler because that is where my direct
knowledge lies and where I can most accurately predict future
direction. I know almost zero about Ford and GM and less than
zero about the other guys, but I can extrapolate my knowledge a a
large degree because the fundamentals of product development and
marketing are the same.

Thankee!

If one is interested in the lowest possible cost/mile driven,
then you MUST drive the car into the junkyard. It can easily be
shown that this always beats a shorter duration buy or a lease.
But, there are other considerations. One is just liking new cars,
which is an addiction I have had all my life and indulge whenever
I can. Another is just not wanting to deal with long-term issues,
loaner cars, and the like. Each person has their own reasons.

My current Charger is the only dealer retail car since 1977, save
the 2002 Prowler I foolishly bought. I decided at the last minute
to lease instead of buy for two main reasons: 1) in the late
summer of 2005 it was looking like $5 gas was coming and I wanted
Chrysler Financial to take the resale risk, not me, and 2) it is
REALLY difficult to unload cars in my area. Trade-ins just rape
you on the depreciation, and selling privately is dangerous in
many ways. So that, coupled with wanting new cars, tells me that
leasing is the way to go. And, my company car lease program is
even better but they're always putzing around with what I'm
allowed to lease, which is the 3rd reason I went retail.

Budgets are a zero sum game whether it is MS's budget for Vista,
the real on-topic thread you and I hijacked, the government's
budget is zero sum, and so is yours and mine. Meaning, we only
have so much money coming in, even if you consider borrowing. It
is how we choose to allocate it that makes a difference. I will
respect anyone's budget scheme and their buying choices also, if
they do so factually and not through some nonense like A is
always a good car while B is a POS, no matter who A or B are.

Again, Justin, if someone has a real NEED, and not just wants to
be seen in an SUV - anybody's, not just Suburbans - they should
go and do it. My gripe, profits for my company aside, is folks
who buy huge trucks then complain about the gas they burn, and I
just shake my head seeing these women driving around town in a
huge 3-seat SUV - alone. Oh, well ...

If people are interested, it is possible to get sales figures. I
live in a very unusual area, so what I see is highly
skewed.First, there's a whole bunch of car company employees
here, so I see lots of American cars, but also many "foreign"
brands that their local employees buy. Then, my particular county
is 4th in the entire country for family income, so I see
everything from the cheapest econoboxes to the most expensive
European and Asian luxo barges. I KNOW there are Vipers and other
exotics around, they come out for the Dream Cruise, but
apparently, they garage them all year. I cannot fathom that - I
buy cars to drive, not to polish in my garage.

Justin, within reason, most all products these days are in a very
tight pack for features and quality. People EXPECT quality, that
no longer sells. A bad rep will kill of a product - any product -
but good quality is simply an entry point. What really makes
things sell - TVs, PCs, DVDs, cars, everything - is perceived
panache and features. I cannot remember the last time I had a car
that didn't have power door locks, power windows, air, AM/FM with
CD, et al, yet people still complain about price. And, all that
safety stuff to save a few dozen people killed or injured because
they were stupid also gets added in.

Again, I am not disparaging MS here or anywhere, but the
situatioon I describe isn't the same for them. It boils down to
Windows or a Mac, unless you're knowledgeable enought to take on
Linux. And, for LOTS of GOOD reasons, the majority of the
marketplace wants a PC. That isn't to say a Mac is bad, they
clearly aren't. But, I'm trying to get us back to an on-topic
discussion. The issue before this court of public opinion isn't
IF Vista is going to sell, or IF Vienna is going to sell - they
will - it is a question of when, how many, and how fast. This has
been a really great thread. I think we've pretty much beat the
shit outta all the major issues of Vista vs. XP, including
believed features, bugs, system requirements and the like, AND
had a little fun talking about other things.

Not pushing you, this is voluntary.