Re: Community sizes
  Home FAQ Contact Sign in
comp.lang.functional only
 
Advanced search
POPULAR GROUPS

more...

 Up
Re: Community sizes         

Group: comp.lang.functional · Group Profile
Author: Jon Harrop
Date: Aug 18, 2008 16:30

Michael Schuerig wrote:
> Recently I read quip somewhere that if some plane had crashed after a
> Haskell(?) conference, it would have wiped out most of the language
> community.

I believe that was about the GHC developers rather than the entire Haskell
community.
> This made me wonder just how big the communities flocking around various
> functional languages really are. If I go only by my own perception
> (availability heuristic, anyone?), the Haskell community must be huge,
> all that talk about monads and stuff, certainly larger than the C#
> community which I barely notice. Now, that can't be true, I obviously
> need a reality check.
>
> So, are there any somewhat objective numbers, maybe based on conference
> attendance, book sales, or job offers? It would be interesting, to have
> an idea of the relative sizes of, say, Erlang, Haskell, (S)ML, OCaml,
> Scheme. I'm not looking for a contest where quality equates to
> popularity, contrariwise, for some this might even be an eye-opener and
> prompt them to move on to a less crowded language.

One of the best objective measurements I have found is the Debian and Ubuntu
package popularity contest results. This is an automated measurement of the
number of users who have packages (such as a specific compiler) installed.
However, it is obviously only an accurate reflection of usage on Linux and
not on Windows.

I have analysed these results by programming language before:

http://flyingfrogblog.blogspot.com/2007/11/most-popular-functional-languages-on....

Here are some recent results:

Debian Ubuntu Total
C#
mono-gmcs: 1,891 13,922 15,813

OCaml
ocaml-nox: 1,920 8,715 10,635

Erlang
erlang-base: 1,322 9,279 10,601

Haskell 9,794
ghc6: 1,214 5,392 6,606
hugs: 683 2,505 3,188

Haskell programmers will almost all have either hugs or ghc6 or both
installed, so there are between 6,606 and 9,794 of them.

You also mentioned the huge amount of talk about Haskell. You may wish to
distinguish between people who talk the talk and people who walk the walk.
I recently gathered statistics about this and found that open source
software written in OCaml is 30x more successful than Haskell in terms of
users garnered per programmer:

http://flyingfrogblog.blogspot.com/2008/08/haskells-virginity.html

Finally, I should note that Don Stewart posted a rebuttal to my findings on
the Haskell-Cafe mailing list and then had me banned before I could reply:

http://www.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell-cafe/2008-August/046129.html

My answers are probably obvious but I shall repeat them here
anyway:

. By Don's metric of chat-room lurkers, Haskell is twice as popular as C#.
So that is clearly a broken metric.

. Unused libraries are worthless.

. Arch Linux only has a disproportionate number of Haskell packages because
Don Stewart generates them himself. They never get used. Indeed, Arch Linux
itself is virtually unused. Don demonstrated this nicely by packaging the
next 30 lines of code that were posted to the mailing list into yet another
unused Haskell library for Arch Linux:

http://www.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell-cafe/2008-August/046170.html

. Although the Haskell list has several times as much traffic as the OCaml
list, both lists have ~100 active contributors according to Google Groups:

http://groups.google.com/group/fa.haskell/about
http://groups.google.com/group/fa.caml/about

In essence, a tiny number of very vocal Haskell proponents try to make it
look as if Haskell has many real programmers and success stories but the
reality is quite the opposite.

--
Dr Jon D Harrop, Flying Frog Consultancy
http://www.ffconsultancy.com/products/?u
no comments
diggit! del.icio.us! reddit!