part 21 asserts forth best for small memory systems, would lisp be better in non small mem?
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part 21 asserts forth best for small memory systems, would lisp be better in non small mem?         


Author: gavino
Date: Mar 6, 2008 11:05

http://www.mpeforth.com/arena/ProgramForth.pdf section 21

I know I should stop theorizing but wouldn't it make sense that
something good in small memory systems would do really well with lots
of memory EG modern intel commodity hardware?

Or do things like lisp have garbage collection etc( he mentions) that
make it simpler that forth for non memory thin hardware?
358 Comments
Re: part 21 asserts forth best for small memory systems, would lisp be better in non small mem?         


Date: Mar 6, 2008 15:32

gavino wrote:
> http://www.mpeforth.com/arena/ProgramForth.pdf section 21
>
> I know I should stop theorizing but wouldn't it make sense that
> something good in small memory systems would do really well with lots
> of memory EG modern intel commodity hardware?

In my opinion yes.
> Or do things like lisp have garbage collection etc( he mentions) that
> make it simpler that forth for non memory thin hardware?

There is at least one Forth that supports garbage collection
(PowerMops). I'm not a big fan of GC, preferring instead to clean up
after myself explicitly. But the point remains that there is
*technically* nothing preventing high-level programming features from
being implemented in Forth.

-Doug
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Re: part 21 asserts forth best for small memory systems, would lisp be better in non small mem?         


Author: m-coughlin
Date: Mar 7, 2008 07:38

gavino wrote:
>
> http://www.mpeforth.com/arena/ProgramForth.pdf section 21
>
> I know I should stop theorizing but wouldn't it make sense that
> something good in small memory systems would do really well
> with lots of memory EG modern intel commodity hardware?

Its not the size of the computer memory that matters, its the
size of the human memory. The first Forth book worth reading
("Starting Forth" by Leo Brodie) has examples of using Forth in
small memory. The book about using Forth in large systems has
yet to be written. Programmers who write large Forth systems
will not publish their code for others to use. Its MUCH more
difficult to write Forth source for others to read than to just
write it for yourself when you remember what all your Forth
words do. The problem of knowing and remembering what other
programmers have done is the crucial step. Users of some other
languages are better at solving this than users of Forth, even
tho they don't do it very well.
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Re: part 21 asserts forth best for small memory systems, would lisp be better in non small mem?         


Author: Elizabeth D Rather
Date: Mar 7, 2008 10:06

m-coughlin wrote:
> ...
> Programmers who write large Forth systems
> will not publish their code for others to use. Its MUCH more
> difficult to write Forth source for others to read than to just
> write it for yourself when you remember what all your Forth
> words do. The problem of knowing and remembering what other
> programmers have done is the crucial step.

Programmers who write large Forth systems work in teams. All successful
teams (using Forth or any language) develop strategies to maximize code
sharing, documentation, and readability within the team. Once you
accept the concept of writing code for the team, it's certainly no
harder to do in Forth than other language. Forth has been used
successfully in team programming projects for over 30 years.

Cheers,
Elizabeth
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Re: part 21 asserts forth best for small memory systems, would lisp be better in non small mem?         


Author: Richard Owlett
Date: Mar 7, 2008 10:50

Elizabeth D Rather wrote:
> m-coughlin wrote:
>
>> ...
>
>> Programmers who write large Forth systems
>
>> will not publish their code for others to use. Its MUCH more
>> difficult to write Forth source for others to read...
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Re: part 21 asserts forth best for small memory systems, would lisp be better in non small mem?         


Author: John Doty
Date: Mar 7, 2008 10:56

Elizabeth D Rather wrote:
> m-coughlin wrote:
>> ...
>> Programmers who write large Forth systems
>> will not publish their code for others to use. Its MUCH more
>> difficult to write Forth source for others to read than to just
>> write it for yourself when you remember what all your Forth
>> words do. The problem of knowing and remembering what other
>> programmers have done is the crucial step.
>
> Programmers who write large Forth systems work in teams. All successful
> teams (using Forth or any language) develop strategies to maximize code
> sharing, documentation, and readability within the team.
^^^^^^

Successful languages have generally achieved their success by
facilitating import and export of code *between* teams, without such
detailed strategies.
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Re: part 21 asserts forth best for small memory systems, would lisp be better in non small mem?         


Author: John Doty
Date: Mar 7, 2008 11:14

Richard Owlett wrote:
> Elizabeth D Rather wrote:
>
>> m-coughlin wrote:
>>
>>> ...
>>
>>> Programmers who write large Forth systems
>>
>>> will not publish their code for others to use. Its MUCH more
>>> difficult to write Forth source for others to read than to just
>>> write it for yourself when you remember what all your Forth
>>> words do. The problem of knowing and remembering what other
>>> programmers have done is the crucial step.
>>
>>
>> Programmers who write large Forth systems work in teams. All
>> successful teams (using Forth or any language) develop strategies to
>> maximize code sharing, documentation, and readability within the
>> team. Once you accept the concept of writing code for the team, it's ...
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Re: part 21 asserts forth best for small memory systems, would lisp be better in non small mem?         


Author: Mark W. Humphries
Date: Mar 7, 2008 11:15

On Mar 8, 2:50 am, Richard Owlett atlascomm.net> wrote:
[snip]
>Seems Forth gets used where goal is COMPETITIVE COMMERCIAL advantage.

Exactly, for a business whether or not to share code is a commercial
decision not to be taken lightly.
I currently see no commercial advantage to sharing the code that most
differentiates our products from those of our competition. If on the
other hand we one day write a new device driver, or a some generic
utility for FreeBSD, for example, than I would have no problem
contributing this code to the open source community. But sharing the
code at the heart of our competitive advantage would be commiting
commercial hara-kiri.
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Re: part 21 asserts forth best for small memory systems, would lisp be better in non small mem?         


Author: John Doty
Date: Mar 7, 2008 11:16

Mark W. Humphries wrote:
> On Mar 8, 2:50 am, Richard Owlett atlascomm.net> wrote:
> [snip]
>> Seems Forth gets used where goal is COMPETITIVE COMMERCIAL advantage.
>
> Exactly, for a business whether or not to share code is a commercial
> decision not to be taken lightly.
> I currently see no commercial advantage to sharing the code that most
> differentiates our products from those of our competition. If on the
> other hand we one day write a new device driver, or a some generic
> utility for FreeBSD, for example, than I would have no problem
> contributing this code to the open source community. But sharing the
> code at the heart of our competitive advantage would be commiting
> commercial hara-kiri.
>

What does this have to do with Forth?
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Re: part 21 asserts forth best for small memory systems, would lisp be better in non small mem?         


Author: Richard Owlett
Date: Mar 7, 2008 12:00

John Doty wrote:
> Mark W. Humphries wrote:
>
>> On Mar 8, 2:50 am, Richard Owlett atlascomm.net> wrote:
>> [snip]
>>
>>> Seems Forth gets used where goal is COMPETITIVE COMMERCIAL advantage.
>>
>>
>> Exactly, for a business whether or not to share code is a commercial
>> decision not to be taken lightly.
>> I currently see no commercial advantage to sharing the code that most
>> differentiates our products from those of our competition. If on the
>> other hand we one day write a new device driver, or a some generic
>> utility for FreeBSD, for example, than I would have no problem
>> contributing this code to the open source community. But sharing the
>> code at the heart of our competitive advantage would be commiting
>> commercial hara-kiri.
>>
> ...
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