Question about Linear systems
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Question about Linear systems         


Author: Anja
Date: Oct 6, 2007 06:45

Hello everyone,

I am trying to introduce myself to DSP through the free book at
(www.dspguide.com) on the Internet.

I was studying the chapter on linear systems and it mentions that
multiplying 2 signals together is not a linear operation. It gives the
example that when you multiply 2 sinusoids of different frequencies,
the result is clearly not a sinusoid.

My question is how is that the test for the linearity of the system?
Why should the multiplication of 2 sinusoids in a linear system
produce another sinusoid?

I hope I am expressing my query clearly enough... Would really
appreciate if someone can help me clarify this doubt...

Thanks,

Anja
20 Comments
Re: Question about Linear systems         


Author: John
Date: Oct 6, 2007 06:58

On Oct 6, 9:45 am, Anja googlemail.com> wrote:
> Hello everyone,
>
> I am trying to introduce myself to DSP through the free book at
> (www.dspguide.com) on the Internet.
>
> I was studying the chapter on linear systems and it mentions that
> multiplying 2 signals together is not a linear operation. It gives the
> example that when you multiply 2 sinusoids of different frequencies,
> the result is clearly not a sinusoid.
>
> My question is how is that the test for the linearity of the system?
> Why should the multiplication of 2 sinusoids in a linear system
> produce another sinusoid?
>
> I hope I am expressing my query clearly enough... Would really
> appreciate if someone can help me clarify this doubt...
>
> Thanks,
> ...
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Re: Question about Linear systems         


Author: Anja
Date: Oct 6, 2007 07:09

> A definitiion and test for a linear system can be found here:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_system
>
> A system that multiplies two inputs fails the test.

I looked at this page but am still unable to understand how and where
it fails the test. Mathematics is not my strong point (though I am
working on it every day!). Is it possible that you can explain a bit
as to what constraints are violated?

Thanks,
Anja
no comments
Re: Question about Linear systems         


Author: Rick Lyons
Date: Oct 6, 2007 07:46

On Sat, 06 Oct 2007 13:45:47 -0000, Anja googlemail.com>
wrote:
>Hello everyone,
>
>I am trying to introduce myself to DSP through the free book at
>(www.dspguide.com) on the Internet.
>
>I was studying the chapter on linear systems and it mentions that
>multiplying 2 signals together is not a linear operation. It gives the
>example that when you multiply 2 sinusoids of different frequencies,
>the result is clearly not a sinusoid.
>
>My question is how is that the test for the linearity of the system?
>Why should the multiplication of 2 sinusoids in a linear system
>produce another sinusoid?

Hi Anja,
to help answer your 2nd question, have a
look in some maths reference book and you'll see
a "trig identity" that says:
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Re: Question about Linear systems         


Author: Richard Owlett
Date: Oct 6, 2007 07:55

Anja wrote:
>>A definitiion and test for a linear system can be found here:
>>
>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_system
>>
>>A system that multiplies two inputs fails the test.
>
>
> I looked at this page but am still unable to understand how and where
> it fails the test. Mathematics is not my strong point (though I am
> working on it every day!). Is it possible that you can explain a bit
> as to what constraints are violated?
>
> Thanks,
> Anja
>

The key sentence of the article is "The behavior of the resulting system
subjected to a complex input can be described as a sum of responses to
simpler inputs."
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Re: Question about Linear systems         


Author: Rune Allnor
Date: Oct 6, 2007 08:11

On 6 Okt, 15:45, Anja googlemail.com> wrote:
> Hello everyone,
>
> I am trying to introduce myself to DSP through the free book at
> (www.dspguide.com) on the Internet.
>
> I was studying the chapter on linear systems and it mentions that
> multiplying 2 signals together is not a linear operation. It gives the
> example that when you multiply 2 sinusoids of different frequencies,
> the result is clearly not a sinusoid.

The linear system model is useful because it leaves you
with a choise: Either express the input signal as one
"complicated" signal, and apply the system function
on this one signal. Or you can express the input as a
sum of "simple" signals, where you apply the system function
on each of these, and synthesize the total output signal
as the sum of "simple" outputs.
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Re: Question about Linear systems         


Author: Anja
Date: Oct 6, 2007 08:13

So, if I understand correctly, this multiplier system fails linearity
test because it is not additive.

So, if the input is the first sinusoid: sin(x1) and let the output for
that be y1.

And if the output is the second sinusoid sin(x2), let the output be
y2.

When both of them are presented as inputs, the output must be y1 + y2
for the system to be called linear... am I correct in understanding it
this way?

Thanks for all your help guys. I really appreciate it.

Anja
no comments
Re: Question about Linear systems         


Author: Anja
Date: Oct 6, 2007 08:16

On Oct 6, 4:11 pm, Rune Allnor wrote:
> On 6 Okt, 15:45, Anja googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hello everyone,
>
>> I am trying to introduce myself to DSP through the free book at
>> (www.dspguide.com) on the Internet.
>
>> I was studying the chapter on linear systems and it mentions that
>> multiplying 2 signals together is not a linear operation. It gives the
>> example that when you multiply 2 sinusoids of different frequencies,
>> the result is clearly not a sinusoid.
>
> The linear system model is useful because it leaves you
> with a choise: Either express the input signal as one
> "complicated" signal, and apply the system function
> on this one signal. Or you can express the input as a
> sum of "simple" signals, where you apply the system function
> on each of these, and synthesize the total output signal
> as the sum of "simple" outputs. ...
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Re: Question about Linear systems         


Author: Andor
Date: Oct 6, 2007 08:18

Anja wrote:
> Hello everyone,
>
> I am trying to introduce myself to DSP through the free book at
> (www.dspguide.com) on the Internet.
>
> I was studying the chapter on linear systems and it mentions that
> multiplying 2 signals together is not a linear operation. It gives the
> example that when you multiply 2 sinusoids of different frequencies,
> the result is clearly not a sinusoid.
>
> My question is how is that the test for the linearity of the system?

Multiplication with a fixed signal is a linear operation. A
"system" (*) H is linear iff

H(a x1 + b x2) = a H(x1) + b H(x2)

for all a numbers a and b and all signals x1 and x2 (just showing the
above condition to be true for a specific pair of signals will not
do). Note that the system H takes one signal as an argument: H = H(x).
Now what if H multplies its argument by sin(w t)?. You get
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Re: Question about Linear systems         


Author: Anja
Date: Oct 6, 2007 08:42

>
> Multiplication with a fixed signal is a linear operation. A
> "system" (*) H is linear iff
>
> H(a x1 + b x2) = a H(x1) + b H(x2)
>
> for all a numbers a and b and all signals x1 and x2 (just showing the
> above condition to be true for a specific pair of signals will not
> do). Note that the system H takes one signal as an argument: H = H(x).
> Now what if H multplies its argument by sin(w t)?. You get
>
> H(a x1(t) + b x2(t))
> = sin(w t)(a x1(t)+b x2(t))
> = a sin(w t) x1(t) + b sin(w t) x2(t)
> = a H(x1(t)) + b H(x2(t)),
>
> so clearly H is a linear system. Systems can be generalized to more
> than one input or output. In this case you still write
>
> y = H(x), ...
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