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Author: George PeattyGeorge Peatty Date: Jun 9, 2008 18:45
God bless the Sci-Fi Channel for re-running Star Trek: The Next Generation.
Tonight's broadcast included "Measure of a Man" which just finished. I had
forgotten how wonderful this episode was. I am convinced it is one of the
five best Trek episodes ever written, but even more than that, is one of the
best pieces of episodic television ever aired.
For those who have forgotten, the episode asks and attempts to answer one
simple question: what is Data? On the one hand, it is claimed that Data is
a machine, and is no more due consideration as a sentient being than any
other machine. Toasters were mentioned specifically. On the other hand, it
is stipulated that while Data is not human, and, indeed, it is not really
possible to determine what kind of a life form he is, he functions in a
manner indistinguishable from humans, and therefore must be accorded the
rights and privileges accorded any human under Federation law.
In the end, we all remember, the latter view, ably represented by Captain
Picard, with a small assist from Guinan, prevailed. What makes this episode
so very interesting is the legal basis for this ruling. The Judge
Advocate's ruling was pretty close to this:
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Author: Steven L.Steven L. Date: Jun 9, 2008 20:03
George Peatty wrote:
> God bless the Sci-Fi Channel for re-running Star Trek: The Next Generation.
> Tonight's broadcast included "Measure of a Man" which just finished. I had
> forgotten how wonderful this episode was. I am convinced it is one of the
> five best Trek episodes ever written, but even more than that, is one of the
> best pieces of episodic television ever aired.
>
> For those who have forgotten, the episode asks and attempts to answer one
> simple question: what is Data? On the one hand, it is claimed that Data is
> a machine, and is no more due consideration as a sentient being than any
> other machine. Toasters were mentioned specifically. On the other hand, it
> is stipulated that while Data is not human, and, indeed, it is not really
> possible to determine what kind of a life form he is, he functions in a
> manner indistinguishable from humans, and therefore must be accorded the
> rights and privileges accorded any human under Federation law.
>
> In the end, we all remember, the latter view, ably represented by Captain
> Picard, with a small assist from Guinan, prevailed. What makes this episode
> so very interesting is the legal basis for this ruling. The Judge
> Advocate's ruling was pretty close to this: ...
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Author: GiseleGisele Date: Jun 9, 2008 23:54
George Peatty copper.net> wrote in
news:39lr4493erpndcl10qj50mlgv1up4kvl7s@4ax.com:
> God bless the Sci-Fi Channel for re-running Star Trek: The Next
> Generation. Tonight's broadcast included "Measure of a Man"
which just
Of the 176? episodes of TNG, two dealt specifically with
religious themes, "Devil's Due" with Ardra the Devil and "Who
Watches the Watchers?" where the natives think "The Picard" is a
god. Both were anti-religious in the sense that they promoted
Humanism (Devil's Due) and Atheism (Who Watches the Watchers?)
The episode you mention above is not religious or spiritual
although some indirect statements are made that might be viewed
as religious. In fact, knowing how Gene Roddenberry felt about
religion (he was a Humanist/Atheist) he probably wanted to take
down the idea of a soul a notch by making it possible for a
machine to be thought of as capable of having a soul. IOW, the
mind, _the brain_, is what makes the person who they are.
Gisele
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Author: GiseleGisele Date: Jun 9, 2008 23:59
Wanted to add there was another episode, can't recall the name,
where this entity is experimenting with the crew to see what death
and so on is all about. At one point, it appears as Counsellor
Troi and Data who ask Picard about the afterlife. In any case, it
isn't really religious but it does identify Picard as an agnostic.
He doesn't know if there is an afterlife or not. Roddenberry said
he wanted to make Picard an atheist but thought it would be
unacceptable to the viewers so made him an agnostic. Again,
clearly not a particularly Christian episode and somewhat anti-
religious.
Gisele
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Author: George PeattyGeorge Peatty Date: Jun 10, 2008 04:32
In article , Gisele says...
>
>Of the 176? episodes of TNG, two dealt specifically with
>religious themes, "Devil's Due" with Ardra the Devil and "Who
>Watches the Watchers?" where the natives think "The Picard" is a
>god. Both were anti-religious in the sense that they promoted
>Humanism (Devil's Due) and Atheism (Who Watches the Watchers?)
I disagree with the first statement, and my entire earlier post is offered as a
refutation of it. I disagree also with your interpretation of Devil's Due and
Who Watches the Watchers. No explicit intention of the writer of each episode
is ever declared, so all beliefs about what any mean must remain inferential.
In Devil's Due, Picard fears for the destiny of his eternal soul, which hardly
sounds like any humanist I ever knew. You could reply that he was joking, but I
would counter that he was joking only about the threat Ardra posed, not the
existence of or ultimate destiny of the human soul.
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Author: George PeattyGeorge Peatty Date: Jun 10, 2008 06:46
In article earthlink.com>, Steven L. says...
>Even atheists can be spiritual, and experience spiritual impulses and
>the transcendent.
I sgree, but I don't think they would.
>They just don't believe in the concept of an Almighty
>God. I think you can find more evidence of spirituality in Star Trek
>than Christianity specifically.
Certainly, but that is not to say the set of all evidence for Christianity in
Trek is empty. Measure of a Man is a case in point. The case can be made for
Devil's Due also, but it is not as strong.
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Date: Jun 10, 2008 08:30
On Mon, 09 Jun 2008 21:45:21 -0400, George Peatty wrote:
> In the end, all of this is sufficient rebuttal to any blanket statement that
> TNG was a secular television series, devoid of any spirituality, and
> certainly antithetical to fundamental Christian notions. I shall be pleased
> to remind those here who claim otherwise of this episode's many references
> to fundamental Christian beliefs, topics and concepts when the occasion
> warrants. Like now. ;)
No, you have it exactly backwards. And if you have watched other
episodes where religion is *directly* addressed, it's obvious that the
creators of the show had a distinctly anti-Judeo-Christian bias.
The idea that a machine built by a man could have something called a
"soul" doesn't "elevate" religious beliefs in Trek, it does the exact
opposite. It actually "brings down" the entire concept in favor of
humanism.
It doesn't matter whether or not you believe in Christianity or
Secular Humanism. There is no way to interpret Measure of a Man in
*favor* of Judeo-Christian beliefs. And in the end, the episode ends
up promoting the absurd notion that a machine created by a man has
intrinsic "rights."
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Author: George PeattyGeorge Peatty Date: Jun 10, 2008 09:35
In article , Lance Corporal \"Hammer\"
Schultz says...
>No, you have it exactly backwards. And if you have watched other
>episodes where religion is *directly* addressed, it's obvious that the
>creators of the show had a distinctly anti-Judeo-Christian bias.
>The idea that a machine built by a man could have something called a
>"soul" doesn't "elevate" religious beliefs in Trek, it does the exact
>opposite. It actually "brings down" the entire concept in favor of
>humanism.
>It doesn't matter whether or not you believe in Christianity or
>Secular Humanism. There is no way to interpret Measure of a Man in
>*favor* of Judeo-Christian beliefs. And in the end, the episode ends
>up promoting the absurd notion that a machine created by a man has
>intrinsic "rights."
We disagree over which of us is looking into the mirror .. If Measure of a Man
made any point, it was the notion that Data having rights was most emphatically
not absurd.
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Date: Jun 10, 2008 10:01
On 10 Jun 2008 09:35:02 -0700, George Peatty wrote:
> We disagree over which of us is looking into the mirror .. If Measure of a Man
> made any point, it was the notion that Data having rights was most emphatically
> not absurd.
Which is why I said it ended making an absurd point. My computer,
which I built, does not have any rights. No matter how good of a
program I write simulating human mannerisms and intelligence, it will
never be more than a machine I built and own.
Data is easily my favorite TNG character, but the notion of machines
having intrinsic rights is absurd no matter the context.
> It may be theologically untenable to apply spiritual concepts to an android, but
> even in the very attempt to apply them, one must stipulate to their existence.
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Author: GeneKGeneK Date: Jun 10, 2008 10:27
"George Peatty" copper.net> wrote in message> In the end, all of this is sufficient rebuttal to any blanket
> statement that TNG was a secular television series, devoid
> of any spirituality, and certainly antithetical to fundamental
> Christian notions.
The concept of a human soul predates Christianity by
centuries. Even the word comes from pagan Greek.
The statement by the judge advocate that she doesn't
know if she has a soul sounds nothing like someone who
has faith, and her saying that a decision is one for saints
hardly proves that she actually believes in saints (such
a statement made by someone who doesn't would simply
mean she thinks nobody is qualified to make the decision
because she doesn't believe saints exist).
Metaphysics, as you define it, describes the study of that
which cannot be proven, but that which cannot be proven
doesn't necessarily exist.
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