> Great. Finally someone is actually willing to listen to answers with
> an open mind and learn.
>
> Now, I would like to apologize for treating you like a flamer right
> away... I tried to answer many questions in a friendly manner till now
> and all of them were replied with flames. It has caused me to respond
> the same way to you.
>
> Okay, I ask again. This is how I "give it a try":
>
> Great. This was what I was asking for from the beginning. Asking open
> minded questions , instead of supposing and starting with a mindset of
> " You can not convince me"
>
>
>
> * What is it that 3D mind does, that makes it an agent of change?
>
> * Why (specifically) is it effective, and why is it more effective
> than other change agents?
>
> I am copy pasting it exactly as I have written on other threads.
>
> Heres what a change method is;
>
> You have a problem. You want to approach girls, you cant. You cant ,
> when there is no apparent reason, other than your feelings in that
> moment.
>
> A change method's job is to find what gets in the way and remove it.
> ----------
>
> You freak out when you see a spider. A change methods job is to
> completely eliminate that. So that you can go stand as near as the
> beast and observe it in wonder.
With you so far. Thanks for answering, by the way....
> Now I know you are going to say that NLP also does this phobia thing,
> but I will say no, there is a huge difference in the change that is
> forced with NLP and the change 3dmind does.
>
> Here's the difference. I will try to explain it with an example. You
> probably go to the refrigirator a couple of times a day to get urself
> something to eat something to drink. Now this going to the
> refrigirator thing is an easy thing for you to do. You dont even
> think about it. You can be thinking about something else while on your
> way to the refrigirator and not even realize that you already got what
> you wanted and came back to your room.
Makes sense.
> Now the rest of this will be alittle more metaphoric like but just
> stay with me.
> What if there was an invisible guy on the way to the refrigirator,
> that was giving you an electric shock everytime you were passing the
> doorway that gets to the refrigirator. Now you would probably bear
> with the electric shock which kicks your ass for once or twice.
> But ... the next time you wanted to go drink some water, you would
> FREAK OUT and start thinking oh shit how the hell am I going to do
> this??? Cuz you would know the feeling that awaits you if you were to
> cross that doorway.
>
> Now there would be two things to do. You would either start pumping
> yourself with feelings of bravity. COME ON MAN I CAN DO THIS , YES I
> CAN DO THIS, NOW GO AND DO THIS.. and you would pass that doorway
> inspite of that crazy electric shock. Otherwise you would sit there
> getting thirstier and thirstier but unable to move. Than you would
> have to start rationalizing , you would start blaming other things and
> find exxcuses to sit whereever you are even if you were thirsty as
> hell.
Well... ideally, I'd like a third option... beat the shit out of the guy
giving me the shock. Sure, I could either sit and be thirsty. Or I could
be brave and go get a drink and get shocked...
But... why can't I find a way to get the drink without the shock? To put
this in the terms of a phobia, like spiders. Sure, I could avoid them.
Sure I coudl try to be brave and face up to them. But ideally, I'd like
to remove the fear of spiders... not just face it.
> Ok. Can you see how a simple thing as going to the refrigirator to
> grab something to eat can be percieved as the hardest thing in the
> world ?
That's why it's a phobia.
> Now what happens with NLP? NLP tries to pump you with feelings of
> brevity, courage and things like that so that u can pass that electric
> shock feeling by overpowering the problem feeling with an EXTREME
> FEELING.
Well... it's an option. Not what I'd call ideal... but if it works...
okay.
> That invisible guy I am talking about is nothing but your feelings .
> They are invisible cuz they are not in the outside world but contained
> in your response to the outside stimulus.
Understood. But, again... then... how do I beat the crap out of the
feelings?
> With 3dmind, what happens is we balance out that invisible guy
> torturing you on the way . So after that you are able to go and do
> what you want without even thinking about it. Much like you do when
> you are going to the refrigirator.
Balance out? Please explain.
> So when someone gets worried what a girl might say to him if he went
> and talked to her is living the exact problem as the guy who is afraid
> to go to the refrigirator. Remove WHATEVER GETS IN THE WAY and it will
> be the most natural and easiest thing in the world that he does.
But you aren't removing anything. It's still there. Balanaced or braved
out or whatever... it's still there. And I don't understand this balance
concept yet.
> The brain processes behind this is another story. Its about balance.
> You percieve something simple as going to a girl as something big cuz
> the brain is not working in a balanced fashion in that moment. The
> CREATIVE ADAPTIVE is cut from activity. The amygdala is overactive.
> Thus your brain is not able to provide solutions but gets stuck in
> similar thoughts and nasty feelings.
I think that's called approach anxiety. And the suggested cure is to
perform approaches, over and over again, until the anxiety no longer
affects you. But, even guys like Style and Mystery say... the anxiety is
always there.
> Its taken from here:
>
http://groups.google.com.tr/group/alt.psychology.nlp/browse_frm/thread/
> ce6fc7c3b1121b8c/77357d798f72366e#77357d798f72366e
>
> If you like, take a look at what "An Old Friend" asked for , than how
> he responded after I gave him my time to write this long post. You
> might as well look at other responses there. Than you will understand
> why we treat them the way we do.
They are marketeers. Forget that. Just keep explaining.
> Heres another one of my responses from another thread;
>
> Ok... 3dmind is a model about how problems occur in the brain, and
> what to do about it... The idea is you feel certain emotions at any
> given time. When these emotions are balanced, meaning they are not
> extreme ones, you feel more in control and you are able to handle and
> solve problems that might come in your way. I dont know what you do
> for having fun or where you have peace doing something, but thats
> kinda the feeling. You feel resourceful.
Which is all nice and all... but not all emotions are balanced. Some are
extreme. Like phobias. And even when balanced, the emotion is still
there. It still has to be overwhelmed by a counter emotion. Otherwise,
it's still affecting you. I should also point out that some extreme
emotions are very useful. I'd not want to love without it being extreme.
> Problems occur when the outside stimuli creates an extreme emotion in
> you. Think of a guy who is afraid of spiders. Or think of something
> that makes you uncomfortable. The problems can be as small as being
> intimidated by someones certain words. What happens with the guy with
> the spider phobia is, he has an extreme reaction to the stimuli. He
> freaks out and cant stay there while you can be there and watch the
> spider walk by.
Or even touch it. Okay. Go on...
> There is tons of brain research on this , yet 3dmind is the process
> connecting the dots. When the guy is having an extreme reaction to
> spiders, the creative adaptive area of his brain is cut from activity.
> His amygdala is extremely active, thus he is giving what we call a 4F
> response.
And?
> Now the thing is as you are going through life , especially in your
> younger years when the world was new yet, even small things like your
> parents shouting at you would create these kinda extreme responses.
> These responses are recorded in the jelly layer of your brain, to
> shortcut the creative adaptive anytime they might occur so that you
> survive that problem. (that means not dying, surviving in the animal
> sense; blood is pumped to your muscles ,adrenaline and cortisol is
> immediately secreted, these happen because if you think you might die
> in those moments.- or at least the brain misinterprets it so.)
This sounds a lot like Scientology. I hope you aren't about to start
talking about "cleansing" and crap.
> So what we do in the 3dmind is we balance those problem feelings that
> cause you to have the unwanted reaction, or makes you stuck. One
> example I know lots of friends have is, when they are in a verbal
> fight with someone ... They always find things they could have said to
> the other party after the argument is over. Well I know very well how
> this happens. The creative adaptive is the castle for creative out of
> the box thought. Its the problem solver. In the event of an argument,
> if prior to earlier learnings extreme feelings are triggered, you
> start to lose your creativity, you get stuck in the amygdala response,
> thus you cant have creative responses. Creative adaptive is almost
> completely shut off. But when the argument is over , the stimulus is
> gone and your brain balance gets restored... Than you start to find
> things you could have said :)
But this is worthless in the moment. Just what does the 3D mind do to
balance the feelings in the moment?
This is all nice and all... but so far it's not sounding any different
than Scientology or fifty other snake-oil cures. Just how do you get to
this balance? Is it Zen? Jesus? The invisible shock guy? What develops
this balance?
Personally, I don't care how it was created. I don;t need to know how a
gun was made to know that when I pull the trigger, it fires a shot. I
don't even need, too much, to know how the specifics of the firing
works... but I will want to know more than just... "it just does."
> * What are the credentials (education, training, experience) of
> those individuals who created it?
>
> I know he has been actively studying NLP,EFT,Hypnosis, QiGong ,Eastern
> medicine for over 10 years. What makes him different from most of the
> other guys is, he experiments with things that he learns in a seminar.
> He actually goes out in the real world and uses them extensively. His
> products have only one goal in mind: Verifiable Real World Results.
Given that this is an esoteric field... I don't much care about
creditials either. If it works, that's what I care about. How it works..
that's what I care about. Freud had no credentials either. Einstein
failed math. Let the marketeers worry about that. Just tell me what it
does and a bit about how it does it.
> * Where can I find independently verified results of the benefits
> of this program?
>
> "So, I ask again, are there
> any INDEPENDENTLY verified results, not tainted by either purchasers
> or users of the product itself, that I can examine, in order to make
> a sound and researched buying decision? "
>
> What do you mean specifically with this?
Well... here's a question I'd rather ask... who else does this work? Can
it be replicated by others?
What makes Scientology such snake-oil is that it can't be duplicated.
When the same methods are used by people that are not paid by
Scientology, suddenly it doesn't work. There are many products that calim
to work.. but don't stand up to the test of being reproducible. Going
back to the example of seduction... it's not only possible to teach a guy
how to pick up women... once he understand it... he can also teach it.
And there are many examples of replicating that success. Are there any
examples of other people that can also teach and replicate the effects of
the 3D Mind?
> "To claim that a controlled experiment is a negative, shows that
> you do not understand the dynamics of the experimentation and
> thesis-testing process. If someone makes a claim, and then asks
> that people purchase the product about which the claim was made,
> then it is certainly a reasonable request to ask what legitimate
> study and controlled examination of that product, that might exist. "
>
> I didnt mean to negate controlled experiments by saying this. What I
> mean is it is not neccesary to prove something that already works.
Of course not. The fact that it works is the proof. But, then, you can
show that it worked. If it works, then someone else can also do it... and
replicate it... and it will work. For example... if 3D Mind works... then
I can learn it... then I can do it.. then I can replicate the results in
others.
> This is not theory we are talking about here . We are getting results
> with this everyday. I am able to approach people, walk alone in the
> streets comfortably (yes I was that shy), I am able to talk in front
> of an audience. These are dreams come true for me. And I tried the
> other methods all. I went to a cbt therapist , a transactional
> analysis dude, I studied NLP for 2.5 years, I did hypnosis, I learned
> ericksonian hypnosis, I learned EFT. If none of them helped and this
> one has changed me and shows me in a no-nonsense approach how these
> changes are happening, than I dont see a reason to make any kind of
> study on it.
It's great that you have your personal testimonial. But, can you
replicate this? Can someone else replicate this? Let's say it was Tom
that used the 3D Mind on you. Can Dr Phil use it? Can Bill Cosby? Can Joe
Cool learn to replicate the results of the 3D Mind?
> But still, what is it that you want specifically? If I understand what
> you mean than I can say something.
How does one learn to teach and use the 3D Mind? For example, with
Scientology... the only way one can "become clear", they claim, is to pay
them. But, they can not show how someone that does not work for them can
also get someone to "become clear". The results of... and more
importantly... the methods of Scientology.. can not be replicated by
others. No one that is not working for them can do it. That's a reason
why it is so bogus sounding.
Sure, Scientology might have worked for you. It worked for Tom Cruise.
But the fact is worked for someone does not by any means mean I'd want to
spend half my life savings to go get "clear". No one can say just what it
does. All they can say it that "it works" and point to examples. Until I
know how it works... I'm not going to be convinced that it does work.
> I think this is good as a starter; Go ahead and shoot questions and we
> can go from there.
>
> Harun
>
>
--
You could be a Cylon and not even know it...
