> "Harun" gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1165828992.444641.59220@16g2000cwy.googlegroups.com...

>>>
>>>

>>>>Dont have sex as most people do

>>>
>>> Your first assumption... which is wrong because of the simple fact that
>>> a
>>> lot of guys who learn this stuff are already having sex with women.
>>> Quite a
>>> few married guys learn these skills. Hell, slap a corporate veneer over
>>> most of these techniques and you'll find them in most marking departments
>>> of
>>> major companies.
>>>
>>> The assumption that one type of person learns this skill set for one set
>>> reason, is ignorant and uninformed.

>>
>> Ok, you are right that there might be other kinds of men there too,
>> because I am not the one in your crowd...
>>
>>

>>>

>>>>, so have to rely on something unnatural

>>>
>>> Assumption number 2... unnatural??
>>>
>>> What is unnatural about learning a skill? Because I learned the skill
>>> or
>>> walking, does that mean I rely on something unnatural to get around? You
>>> are using emotionally loaded language for your attacks, because you
>>> arguments are based on your feelings and assumptions, not on fact.
>>>

>>
>> Look... Whats wrong with yourself that you cannot get any woman
>> naturally?

>
> You are reapeating yourself instead of answering the question.
>
> What it unnatural about learning a skill?
>

>> Thats what I have been trying to say. These "skills" you
>> claim to learn are not needded.

>
> Comfortable shoes are not "needed", but having them is certianly preferable
> to not having them.
>
> What are you trying to argue?
>
>

>> Especially push-pull, be direct, cocky
>> and funny blablabla... These are all unnatural,

>
> By what definition of natural?
>
> Is it that you are claiming that changeing one's behavior is unnatural?
>
>

>> and you are doing
>> something else than being yourself, while you ccan be yourself and
>> attract the women anyways.

>
> So are you actually trying to argue that in order to "be yourself" you must
> never change or alter your behavior in any way? Funny... I had a stutter
> when I was young, and spent a lot of time doing speech therapy to learn
> skills to overcome the stutter... but according to you that was unnatural
> and I should just "be myself" and stutter?
>
>

>> The belief that he can do it and its not a
>> big dig deal if he cant is what people lack.

>
> Funny, that was one of the first things I picked up from this community that
> you feel so compelled to attack..
>
>

>>

>>>

>>>> to GET women, which causes them to get addicted to
>>>> the skills,

>>>
>>> Again, following this logic we're addicted to walking. In fact,
>>> following
>>> your logic, anything we learn and apply to our lives to obtain any
>>> improvement is an addiction.

>>
>> This is a weak example... but given most of your x=x assumptions
>> troughout the whole thread its understandable.

>
> Note no counter argument, but rather a personal attack.
>

>> Does walking make you
>> feel overly good about yourself?

>
> Ask someone recently relegated to a wheelchair, who is learning how to walk
> again, if their being able to walk makes them feel good..
>

>>Like you have accomplished something?
>> No you learned it naturally and there was no emotion behind it.

>
> You've obviously never seen a child take its first steps.... no emotion to
> it?
>
> Let me know when you actually come up with an argument to support you inane
> addiction accusation.
>
>

>>

>>>

>>>> women or whatever causes them to feel valuable.

>>>
>>> Another assumption... doubtless this is true for some men, that they feel
>>> valuable if women want them, however many others don;to really care and
>>> just
>>> want sex... many just want to improve their current situations... many
>>> want
>>> many different things. Yet you presume to slap a label of desperation
>>> and
>>> addiction on all of these men... which is the very height of arrogance.
>>>

>>
>> What I dont see is, what's it that stopped them in the firstplace to go
>> have sex, and made them end up in a seduction gurus hands?

>
> Who said they were stopped at all? Again you assume they must all be
> stopped, meaning gtting no sex at all, in order for them to have any
> interest in learning seduction skills. This is YOUR assumption, and it is
> simply wrong.
>
> The reasons men learn these skills are varried.
>
>

>>>>> Why the fuck cant you go and get them straight away and instead turn

>>>> this into a learning session?

>>>
>>> For the same reason some strive for the A+ while other settle for the C-.
>>> You may be content to drift along and hope that you get lucky... others
>>> wish
>>> to go out and make it happen for them, rather than waiting and hoping.
>>>

>>
>> Thats not a true at all. You dont need have seduction skills to get a
>> woman. You seem to think everyhting is a skill which I think causes you
>> to see it this way.

>
> All learned behavior is a skill that is learned, by definition.
>
> The only difference is the process for learning the skill.
>
>

>> I hvae a friend who dates models in my country, who
>> doesnt knnow shit about this and DIDNT ever go anywhere to learn.

>
> He learned... by observation or by trial and error or by modeling someone...
> he still went though a process of learning and changing based on what he
> learned. Learning does not need to be institutional and orginied, but that
> does add to the efficiency and effectivness of the process. Learning by
> trial and error is time consuming and infficient.
>
>

>>He
>> doesnt use cocky , he doesnt use direct whatever, he just is himself.,

>
> "Himself"... being the end result of all the changes in his behavior he's
> made over the course of his life spent learning how to function in society?
>
>

>> He acts according to the situation.

>
> Social adaptability, oh that's certainly not a learned skill.
>

>> So you can see him one day behaving
>> like a sissy next to his girlfirend and she will like him even more,

>
> Funny you said he dates models... now he has a girlfriend. Does the
> girlfriend know about the other models he's dating?
>
>

>> all the while he doesnt care how he will look like from the outside.
>> Can you honestly say that you dont care? That was the second post i
>> have made about this.
>>

>
> Of course I care how I look... that's just considered basic hygiene in this
> country. The people who really don't care how they look are usually in an
> ally with a bottle in their hand and a load in their pants.
>
> The idea of not caring what others think or how you appear to others is
> again inefficient. One should always care enough to be aware how they
> appear to others.
>
> Now what people need to avoid is allowing that consideration to become a
> negative influence or a primary behavioral motivation. It is as foolish to
> base your actions entirely on the thoughts and opinions of other people as
> it is to ignore the thoughts and opinions of others entirely.
>

>>

>>> The real question is why you feel so insecure that you need to attack
>>> these
>>> men for their willingness to learn new skills that help them obtain their
>>> goals?
>>>

>>>>Give me a simple reason other than that
>>>> you cant get them with what you are now, so you have to learn.

>>>
>>> First off, nobody HAS to learn... learning is a process of will. Look
>>> around there are plenty of example of people who have no desire to
>>> learn...
>>> the just sit around and let life happen to them.

>>
>> Thats right, lots of people rationalized that it must be the way they
>> are , so they give up on getting things and remain safely in their
>> bubbles. What I meant is the other one, being addicted to learning
>> something.

>
> Again whats the difference between wanting to learn and improve and being
> addicted to learnign and improving?
>

>> I tried many of the skills and thought I should learn learn
>> learn , most of the times I would end up only thinking about it and
>> other times when it worked I was really happy. But in the end they
>> werent ME. I would lose them if I didnt do them constantly to make them
>> a habit.

>
> What you seem to fail to understand is that what you just described is a
> condensed version of the learning process you otherwise embrace.
>
> All changes in behavior are establsihed as habbits at first....
>

>>>
>>> Men learn seduction to improve their results... for some that means going
>>> from no women to some women... for others it means going from bitchy
>>> controlling women to kind considerate women... for some it means going
>>> from
>>> hot women to really hot women... for some it means going for a loveless
>>> marriage to a marriage with a future... for some it means going from a
>>> hot
>>> girlfriend to 2 hot girlfriends.
>>>
>>> This is the point you miss, or ignore, that there are as many reasons to
>>> learn these skills as there are men who want to learn them. So your
>>> blanket
>>> generalizations are just flat out wrong.

>>
>> While there are many reasons, I am talking about the general
>> population, which I am sure you can attest is the way I am talking
>> about.
>>
>> On the other hand, why cant the guy who found a bitchy woman leave that
>> one and go find out a more considerate woman? Why cant the guy who has
>> a hot girlfriend go find another one? What gets in the way ?
>>

>
> Many things... many circumstances... could be fear, maybe love, maybe just
> not knowing how to take that first step. What is an obstacle for any given
> guy is a variable that depends on the guy. You seem to want to lump them
> all together in some category or class to provide a blanket explanation.
>
> It doesn't work like that.
>
>
>

>>>

>>>> Do you think all these billions of people came to existence with
>>>> seduction methods?

>>>
>>> Yes, as a matter of fact they did, and with many of the same methods that
>>> men learn about here. The only real difference between then and now is
>>> the
>>> level of organization behind the process by which the skills are taught
>>> and
>>> learned. Like all education, as we advance as a species, so too does our
>>> technology and learning process. Where 10,000 years ago, one might learn
>>> about women by observation or from spoken word or trial and error...
>>> today
>>> we have the net and books and movies etc.

>>
>> Wow cool :) From the amount of obssesive belief you have in one idea I
>> can see how you get offended with remarks against it.
>>

>
> Again note: no counter argument or refutation whatso ever... just another
> personal attack.
>
>

>>>
>>> The invention of the sail, does not mean the wind is something new.

>>
>> That wind is having sex it self, men getting woman. NOT the seduction
>> methods. You made my point thank you.

>
> No the wind is seduction, and has always been there... the sail is the
> technology created to utilize the wind.
>
> To draw it out for you... just because the means of teaching seduction
> skills are new an refined, that doesn't make the core concepts of seduction
> new at all. Seduction has always been a part of human social interaction...
> we just teach it more effectively now..
>

>>So any mumbo jumbo wrapped around
>> wind doesnt make it the only way that wind exists. I have in my country
>> men with 3 wives . How about that? :)

>
> What the hell are you trying to argue here? How would the existance of a
> man with 3 wives or 12 wives negate the point i raised about seduction being
>
>

>>

>>>
>>> Having a biological drive to procreate does not dictate any end outcome
>>> on
>>> an individual level. I have a biological drive to eat food, but that
>>> doesn't mean I'll eat anything. Similarly, women are profoundly
>>> selective
>>> when operating based on a drive to procreate. So the fact that women are
>>> looking to have sex with men, and men are looking to have sex with
>>> women...
>>> does not mean that a given man will be able to have sex with a given
>>> woman.
>>>
>>> Obviously is the reptile brain drive was or only or even or primary
>>> behavioral motivator, marriage would mean nothing, and monogamy would
>>> cease
>>> to exist because all the women would want the seed of the biggest and
>>> strongest man that could find. However millions of years of years of
>>> evolution has layered a much more complex emotional make up and millions
>>> of
>>> years of socialization and cultural development has muted those drives to
>>> mere impulses.
>>>
>>> If the reptile brain is the driving force, evolution is the steering and
>>> socialization is the break.

>>
>> While these are right, its you yourself stopping yourself from getting
>> women in my point of view NOT that you have less skills.

>
> Many men do limit themselves... and the skills they learn to help are skills
> focused on overcoming and eliminating liming beliefs. Learning how to not
> do something that has a negative effect is as much a skill as learning to do
> something that has a positive effect.
>
>

>>>
>>>

>>>> As long as you continue to deny yourself

>>>
>>> Wow now you're getting heavy into the cult-speak. Disagreeing with you
>>> is
>>> self-denial... why is it so troubling to you that someone disagrees with
>>> your assumptions? Is your world that fragile?

>>
>> Its not about that. Its about the abusive language you use.

>
> Says the guy who has called me a moron and a rubbrhead.... yawn.
>

>> Trying
>> obsessively

>
> Again with the accusation of obsession.... apparently you consider
> responding to you to be obsessive.
>

>> to prove that someone who challanges the way you see world
>> is a liar

>
> No what I proved was that someone who says they did not say something, which
> i can quote them saying, is a liar.
>

>>so you cant listen to my advice blabla. In my opinion thats a
>> very sick way to ignore other ideas.

>
> Demonstrating you've lied and distorted facts is not a means to ignore your
> advice or ideas. It takes nothing to ignore your ideas, no effort and no
> response. If I just wanted to ignore you, I would.
>
> I'd prefer to point out all the massive holes in your logic, and the
> hypocritical contradictions in your standards, then watch you try to pass of
> personal attacks as counter arguments, while telling me how confident you
> are.
>
>

>>>>you will be the dickhead you
>>>> are now and

>>>
>>> More insults from the guy who claims he never insulted me.... lol. If
>>> calling you on your bullshit makes me a dickhead, than so be it.

>>
>> Again... All those energy you spend to find names for me, makes me tell
>> you this.
>>

>
> So not only are you insulting me and being dishonest about doing so, you
> then are unable to even take responsibility for you own words. I make you
> do it huh... that's some mighty fine reactive mind methods you got there
> sparky.
>
> See when I insult you... I do it because I want to, and I find it amusing,
> so I make the decision to insult you. I don't whine like a child that you
> made me do it.
>
>
>

>> You have turned the interaction into a negative one from the very first
>> comment you have given to my reply and building it from there.

>
> I asked you to try again in English, and you called me a moron for not being
> able to decipher your broken English.
>
> Your posting history is full of you insulting people then whining that you
> did not insult them.
>
>

>>So I am
>> pretty glad that I have told you what I think you are.
>>

>
> So you admit you lied when you claimed you did not insult me?
>
>

>>

>>>

>>>> personally please be .seeing you makes me happy as I see
>>>> what I would have become if I chose to train myself up for getting
>>>> women instead of trying to unleash my natural confidence.

>>>
>>> Oh I get it, you used some non-process process for unleashing your inner
>>> giant, and you are so confident and secure now, that you feel the need to
>>> go
>>> around attacking anybody who doesn;t think the way you do or believe what
>>> you believe?
>>>
>>> Now that's confidence buddy.

>>
>> LOL. Ask yourself that. Can you be arrogant in your remarks just
>> beccause you know some mumbo jumbo seduction method?

>
> I'm not the one attacking men by calling them desperate addicts, you are.
>
>

>>>
>>> However, the fact is that confidence is a learned skill... be it learned
>>> though trial and error on your own or though training. Just like
>>> learning
>>> to fight in a dojo or learning in a bar brawl... you are still learning.
>>> SO
>>> what your whole inept argument boils down to is you've got some petty
>>> insecurity over the method by which the same basic skill set is
>>> learned...
>>> be it though organized training or trial and error.
>>>

>> confidence isnt a learned skill. Its a state of being that has nothing
>> to do with outside things.

>
> con·fi·dence
> -noun 1. full trust; belief in the powers, trustworthiness, or reliability
> of a person or thing: We have every confidence in their ability to succeed.
> 2. belief in oneself and one's powers or abilities; self-confidence;
> self-reliance; assurance: His lack of confidence defeated him.
>
>
> Confidence is a belief in oneself... and beliefs are something we learn. We
> are not born with confidence, nor doubt, because we are also not born with
> reason. These are learned behaviors, shaped by our experiences.
>
> We learn to fear and to doubt and to hope and to trust.
>
> These are not mystical things, but simple compounding developmental
> processes.
>
>
>

>> It comes from inside. It is not dependent on
>> SKILLS, money, phsyical power or anthing like that. But of course that
>> will be hardest thing in the world for you to grasp and it actually is
>> the basis of my whole argument, if only you would try to see what I
>> mean, than you would have gotten a glimpse of it, but I doubt that.

>
> You claim that you LEARNED to unleash your confidence... you other posts
> indicate you're referring to the 3dmind program. Yet you sit here and act
> as if that wasn't training... training to remove limiting beliefs and
> overcome doubts and fears.
>
> How do you reconcile this glaring inconsistency in you argument.... oh let
> me guess, by calling me a name and blaming me for making you call me a name,
> and then crowing about your amazing confidence.
>
>
>

>>

>>>> And dear, dont forget to keep on ranting about my delusions and lies
>>>> and distortions and all that cool stuff... You know the style :)

>>>
>>> And note that you've yet to refute a single of those examples I provided
>>> of
>>> your dishonesty and distortions, but instead attack me for pointing them
>>> out. Your just the model of confidence, you are.
>>>

>>
>> Thats because you are in a need to find dishonesty and distortions.

>
> No actualy I found them, easily and quoted them, and you can't refute the
> facts.
>
> FIrst you said....
>
> "I wonder where all the morons were when I was in the us last month...
> Having read these
> newsgroups I really was starting to believe that guys like you were examples
> of americans, but fortunately I came to realise that you guys are 1 in a
> million in real life... So enjoy your uniqueness..."
>
>
> Then you lied and said....
>

>> I bet you HAVE A SENSE OF HOW BEING INSULTED FEELS LIKE, but I didnt
>> insult you.

>
>
>

>> If
>> you were to start a civil conversation , I would have gone to far
>> limits to make sure you understand what I try to mean, but
>> unfortunately with this unfriendly attitude of yours, you are not worth
>> that.

>
> And note, still no refutations or counter arguments, but instead another
> attempt at personal attacks.