"Stephanie" (me@iwishicoud.net) wrote, of the engagement ring custom,
that some people have refused to take part in it, regardless of what
society thinks, and so it is possible for men to get married without
being "required" to buy a ring. What's more, she seems to feel that
a sea change can and will result if more men stand up to reject the
custom.

"Andre Lieven " has replied to the effect
that men have limited power in many societal issues, dismissing
Ms Stephanie's remarks as:

What would you have an individual woman *do*? With one exception, the
women in this thread have all said that they didn't want big engagement
rings and don't have them.

When the subject came up, they all (with that one exception) denounced
the custom, describing it as "absurd", among other things.

These women don't participate in the custom, and they publicly denounced
it when the subject came up. To me, it would appear that they're on our
side in the matter. But even though they are women who agree with you,
you seem to arguing with them *while* they are agreeing with you.

Ms Stephanie rejected the custom, didn't take part in it, and publicly
denounced it. What else would you like her to do?

Darren Provine ! kilroy@elvis.rowan.edu ! http://www.rowan.edu/~kilroy
"The Lady Arwen Undomiel, clad in shimmering Elven raiment, gave to me
the shards of Narsil in the forest of Imladris, signifying by the will
of Iluvatar that I, Aragorn, was to carry Narsil. That is why I am
your king." -- Monty Python and the One Ring