On Fri, 19 Jan 2007 16:14:59 GMT, "Daniel S. Vieira"
no-spam.com> wrote:

On Fri, 19 Jan 2007 07:32:37 -0600, duke cox.net> wrote:

So you have cut Ephesians 1 out of your Bible? The word "predestined"
means "poo-pooed" to you? Go figure.

in Christ Jesus,
Checker

"old man joe" home.com> wrote in message
news:4jf1r25vftb9auh20i47qore14gsh9d3cl@4ax.com...

I think one needs to find the balance within these two passages:

Rev 20:15 "And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into
the lake of fire."

and

Matt 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand,'Depart from Me,
you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his
angels:"

Double Predestination is one of those topics that bears no fruit, and it is
not the message of fire and damnation on the cursed, but it is the message
of the Gospel. Think about it, the Righteous have no fear of hell and the
lake of fire.

Lets wander on over to John 10:26

"But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep"

Interesting that you say that when Pope John Paul II called for Catholics to
evangelize the word of God.

On Thu, 11 Jan 2007 15:20:14 -0500, old man joe home.com> wrote:

It is the case quite often. Maybe you should get to know more
Catholics.

these words of John the Baptist as recorded by the Apostle John
certainly do not suggest God made a mistake in giving John these words
to say... if indeed John is saying that the Lamb of God takes away the
sin of every man, woman and child who ever was and whoever will be.

if that were so, John the Baptist would be in direct contradiction
with Christ who says He lays down Hid life for the sheep.
( John. 10:11 ) not every man, woman and child who ever was and ever
will be are His sheep... those who heard Jesus on that occasion are
exempted at least.

if Christ's atonement is universal, as the will worshiper hopes, he
must logically admit the murderous Islamic extremists are included in
that number... as well as Hitler, Stalin and Judas Iscariot.

even the papists are greedy enough to say only they are saved.

here we have the Bible word ' world.. cosmos ' used by the Apostle
John in one of the 7 different ways he explains doctrine. the usage
here in John 1:29 can only mean ' men out of every tribe and nation
but not all tribes and nations as a whole.'

the term ' Limited Atonement ' or ' Particular Redemption ' is used
to reply to the Arminian / Methodist doctrine of Universal Atonement
which came about way back in the 1600's when the followers of Jacob
Arminius thought it proper to start their own brand of a Protestant
Reformation.

so they came to the Dutch Parliament and presented their belief
system to them, and after 154 sessions which lasted over 7 months, it
was concluded that the position of Mr. Arminius was actually
heretical.

the Arminian doctrine than man is not a slave to Satan, sin and
death, and is able in and of himself to accept or reject Christ stems
from their belief that the atonement of Christ is ' universal '...
that is, Christ paid the penalty for the sins of all men everywhere,
and all one has to do is ' make a decision for Christ ' or ' accept
Jesus as one's Lord and Savior ' and thus become saved.

since Christ paid the penalty for the sins of everyone and everyone
is not saved, it is easy to see that such a teaching presents Christ
as a failed Savior, since many have gone on to perdition.

" For since, in the wisdom of God, the world by wisdom did not know
God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save those who
believe." 1 Cor. 1:21

the power of God found in the gospel is aimed at only " those who
believe " and those who believe constitute just one group of people;
that is, those who are appointed to receive Jesus Christ as their
Redeemer since only " as many as had been appointed to eternal life,
believed. " Acts 13:48

that God should so design that the darkness in man towards the
things of God causes him to reject the Savior in every case, as in
Luke 4;14-29; Acts 13:14-48, God is pleased to save from eternal
death a people chosen by Himself, without any merit being found in
them, to be given His grace unto salvation. Eph. 1:3-14

everyone without exception, is an enemy of Jesus Christ ( Ro. 8:7 )
unless God intervenes by gracing them with the belief unto salvation
as in Acts 13:48. man is otherwise dead in trespasses and sins and
will remain so, seeing that there is no salvation by the will of man.
Joh. 1:12,13

old man joe wrote:

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son,
that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal
life." Joh. 3:16

*****************************************

will worship... what it is in Bible terms :

the belief that man is sovereign in all choices between good and
evil... that salvation is man's choice... that man created God in his
own image... " the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and
self-abasement " Col. 2:23 ( NASB ) " will worship " ( KJV )

universalist... someone who claims Christ died for everyone... even
those in hell.

******************

here we have yet another verse offered as a proof text for the
belief of universal atonement and will worship. on closer examination
of this verse, it does not at all prove the position that man " makes
a decision for Christ " and becomes elect by a good act of his will,
since the atonement of Christ is effectual only so far as His choice
is concerned. Eph. 1:3-14