THE PROBLEM WITH NEW CREATURES IN CHRIST...
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THE PROBLEM WITH NEW CREATURES IN CHRIST...         


Author: The_Sage
Date: May 9, 2008 20:36

I frequently point out to people how morally disgraceful the past and present
history of Christians are. I like to mention people like Jim Baker, Jimmy
Swaggart, and Oral Roberts. I'm told, "Don't look at the people, look at the
example that Christ set instead. Besides, any ol' devil can say he's a
Christian". But isn't Christ supposed to change people? Aren't they supposed to
be "new creatures in Christ"? What's so new about them? Where are all the
changed people then? Where's the proof that God or Christ are real then? Then
I'm told, "Christians aren't perfect...just forgiven. Christians can also
backslide". So I'll ask again, how can you be a new creature if you don't act
any different than the old creature? How is God going to be able to tell the
difference between sinners and saints if...
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Re: THE PROBLEM WITH NEW CREATURES IN CHRIST...         


Author: The_Sage
Date: May 10, 2008 10:21

>Reply to article by: Midwinter hotmail.co.uk>
>Date written: Sat, 10 May 2008 05:47:37 -0500
>MsgID:
>> I frequently point out to people how morally disgraceful the past and
>> present history of Christians are. I like to mention people like Jim
>> Baker, Jimmy Swaggart, and Oral Roberts. I'm told, "Don't look at the
>> people, look at the example that Christ set instead. Besides, any ol'
>> devil can say he's a Christian". But isn't Christ supposed to change
>> people? Aren't they supposed to be "new creatures in Christ"? What's
>> so new about them? Where are all the changed people then? Where's the
>> proof that God or Christ are real then?
>I suppose an obvious answer to this would be that, from their point of
>view, the Christian has to actively want and allow God to change them.

I know, but that answer will backfire since we are right back to where we
started: why are there no Christians that want or will allow God to change them?
Besides that, the Bible promises to change believers and it calls them "new
creatures in Christ", yet there are no new creatures in Christ anywhere to be
found.
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Re: THE PROBLEM WITH NEW CREATURES IN CHRIST...         


Author: The_Sage
Date: May 11, 2008 18:07

>Reply to article by: Midwinter hotmail.co.uk>
>Date written: Sat, 10 May 2008 16:44:09 -0500
>MsgID:
>> I know, but that answer will backfire since we are right back to where
>> we started: why are there no Christians that want or will allow God to
>> change them?
>Well, that question requires first that we define the sort of change that
>we, as observers, would recognise. What sort of change are WE looking to
>see in Christians? Based on the original question, would we be looking to
>see if God changed them into moral people?
>If that's the case, then your question here would surely require the prior
>establishment of a premise that there are *no* moral Christians. Would
>that be a safe premise to begin with, do you think?

Nope.
>You originally
>mentioned the 'morally disgraceful past' of Christians - did you actually
>mean to include ALL Christians in that?

All the ones that are mentioned in history.
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