On Sun, 07 Sep 2008 09:15:17 -0400,
in article
4ax.com>,
old man joe home.com> wrote:
>
> spoken from the lips of the Son of God Himself, who's words come
>from God the Father Himself ( Jn. 14:24 ) the blood of the Atonement
>for sin made by Jesus " is poured out for " many " for the
>forgiveness of sins. " but not for all.
All is many. And I'm glad you decided to use the word "all",
in contrast to many, because the Bible also says Christ is the
Savior of "all" men, "specially them that believe". Now what
is the limited atonement theory going to do with that verse?
Well, they'll try to insert the word "elect", where it is
nowhere stated. So let's see how that works:
"The Savior of all elect men, especially them elect that
believe"?
All of the elect believe (Rom. 8; 9). Therefore, it would be
ridiculous to say Christ is the Savior of all elect men, then
add, for clarification, even those elect who believe. The
fact is, Christ is the Savior of "all" men, including those
who don't believe!
>if the price He paid was for " all, " then all would be saved...
>there would be no false religions, no war, no hate... because
>everyone's life would be completely devoted to following the
>Law of love as set down by God in the first letter of John.
> this of course means that the devil's gospel of Universal
>Atonement is blasphemy... preaching lies about God.
No, that's an error derived from logic, not exegesis. Fact
is, for example, the blood of Passover had to be applied to
the doorpost of a house, before anyone in that house was
saved, even among the elect. It's not enough that the payment
be made, it has to also be applied to the doorpost of a
person's soul, through faith. The lost perish then, not
because there was no atonement made for their sins, but
because the value of the atonement was never applied to their
soul through faith.
I would argue that limited atonement is the gospel that is
blasphemy, because it seeks to reduce the value of Christ's
atonement, and the offense of sin, to the finite. Further, it
may even be a damnable heresy, because it offers no basis for
objective faith in Christ's death and resurrection.
If Christ did not die for every man, then you cannot know that
Christ died for you, based on what the Bible says, since it
doesn't say your name, the date you were born, etc. Instead,
those who believe limited atonement have to place their faith
in the assumption that they must be one of the elect.
>it was never the purpose of
>God to save all since this and other text of Holy Scriptures clearly
>define that " in Adam, all die, so also in Christ all shall be made
>alive. " 1 Cor. 15:22... which can not be if Christ died for all to
>be forgiven and have the inner assurance that they know and are known
>of God, intimately.
The problem is, quoting verses that show Christ died for the
elect, doesn't automatically prove that therefore Christ
didn't die for anyone else. That would be like quoting where
Paul said Christ gave Himself for his sins, then concluding
that therefore, Christ died only for the apostle Paul. If
other verses expand the scope of Christ's atonement, then you
can't eliminate that by simply quoting verses that show Christ
died for the elect.
John 12, for example, says Christ did not come to judge the
world, but to save it. That is why He will not judge those
who reject Him and His word, because His gospel is what will
judge them. Thus, the Bible clearly defines the world God
wants to be saved as including those who ultimately reject
Christ and the gospel of salvation.
> it is by God's indwelling Holy Spirit which assures the elect of
>their intimate relationship with the Living Father through Jesus
>Christ. Ro. 8:16
But you can't assume you're elect, just to believe that Christ
died for you in the first place. That's putting the cart
before the ox. You have to first believe Christ died for you,
then you know you are elect, because only the elect believe.
There is no way you can believe Christ died for you, based on
faith in what the Bible says, unless it says He died for all
men, since then, your faith would not be in what the Bible
says about Christ's death and resurrection, but the assumption
that you are elect.
> the other side of the coin, so to speak, is that " For those who are
>according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but
>those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
>For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit
>is life and peace,
>
> because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does
>not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able [to do
>so]; and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. " Ro. 8:5-8
You don't have to limit the value of Christ's atonement to
believe that _every_ lost person (including the elect), are
incapable of rendering a favorable decision for God. Only the
elect will believe, and that's only because God works in them
to will and do of His good pleasure (Phil. 2:13). Even so,
God imparts saving faith through hearing the preaching of the
gospel of Christ's death and resurrection, not the arrogant
assumption that you must somehow be one of the elect.
> concluding that if Christ died for ' all ' then ' all ' would be
>earnestly desiring to do the things God requires of the " many ' whom
>Christ actually did die for. but the evidence in the world around us,
>is just the opposite.
This is the erroneous logic of the limited atonement theory,
not a necessity of believing in the unlimited value of
Christ's atonement. Universal atonement does not result in
universal salvation, because the value of the atonement must
be applied to a persons' account through faith, and God will
only work in the elect to believe. Therefore, we see that not
all are saved, which is indisputable.
> why then do the Fundamentalist / Universalist types oppose the plain
>teaching of God's Holy Scripture ?
They do not. The limited atonement view is the one that
opposes the plain statements of Scripture, in favor of faulty
human logic. People who teach universal salvation, however,
are also wrong, and proclaim a false gospel..
> the answer is to be found in the
>words of God Himself... " Why do you not understand what I am saying?
>[It is] because you cannot hear My word. You are of [your] father the
>devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. " Jn. 8:43,44
And notice, in John 12, that Christ said He did not come to
judge the world, but to save it. The limited atonement
theorists would then try to insert the word "elect", before
"world", but it won't work. Fact is, this passage defines
"world" as including those who ultimately reject Christ's
word. That's why they are not judged by Christ, but by the
gospel He preached to them, and that they rejected. You can't
be guilty of rejecting Christ as your Savior, and the gospel,
unless salvation was being legitimately offered to you, and
Christ actually died to pay for your sins. Otherwise, God
would be condemning people for failing to believe a lie.
--
Christ died for our sins, and God raised Him from the dead.
Rely on this work alone to escape hell and receive eternal
life (Jn. 3:16; 1 Cor. 15:1-3; Eph. 2:8-10; 2 Thess. 1:8-9).
We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself
up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every
thought to make it obedient to Christ. В†2 Corinthians 10:5
