In message
4ax.com> old man
joe home.com> wrote:
>
> another verse so expounded by the Fundamentalist types so as
> to mean
> that the substitutional death of Christ makes Him the Savior of
> all men... if they would only grace God by being their own
> co-redeemer through some patented sinners prayer or some
> decision they have made to follow Christ... salvation by doing
> something good towards God so as to merit salvation by that
> doing.
>
> thanks be to God in Christ that salvation is unconditional
> and
> taught so by the Savior Himself as in Luke chapter four. that
> salvation is not by the will of man as in Jn. 1:12,13. but
> that the
> glory for the doing goes to God. Ro. 3:27 because of Ro. 1:16-
> 3:26
> " Salvation belongs to the LORD. " Ps. 3:8
>
> what does it mean then when Paul writes saying " ...the
> living God,
> who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. " ?
>
> for the Living God to be the Savior of " all men " simply
> means
> God... " makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and
> sends
> rain on the just and on the unjust. " Mt. 5:45
The sun shines on the grass and the trees. And the rain waters
them. Does that make God the "saviour of all grass"? And
the "saviour of all trees"?
Since the sun shines on the insects too, does that mean God
is "the saviour of all the flies," and "the saviour of all
grasshoppers"?
By old man joe's logic, it must!
In his post, old man joe attempts to negate the words of Paul in
1 Timothy 4:10, which say God is the "Saviour of all men"
contrary to joe's Calvinist theology. He clearly promotes a
distorted version of the gospel, such as was foretold by the
prophet Joel, when he wrote about the sun being turned to
darkness. The sun is a symbol of the gospel!
Joel 2:31
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood,
before the great and terrible day of the LORD come.
Early church fathers introduced pagan ideas of the immortality of
the soul, and unending infernal torment of unbelievers,
perverting the true gospel of the apostles. Augustine and Calvin
reasoned that some men were predestined to be lost!
The gospel is represented by the sun, in Revelation 12:1, where
the sun clothes the woman in heaven; she represents the Church.
But Joel's prophecy shows that the light and truth of the gospel
was obscured, by theologians, as foretold in the NT; for example
in 2 Peter 2, and by Paul in 2 Timothy 4:2-4:
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove,
rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound
doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to
themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall
be turned unto fables.
This is what happened in the early Church. They merged Plato's
teaching about man having an immortal soul with Christian
doctrine. Augustine imported the fable of unending infernal
torment of unbelievers from his Manichaean past.
Paul said,
1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we
trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men,
specially of those that believe.
When Paul called Christ "the saviour of all men" in the above
scripture, he was not referring to the sun warming them. The sun
is not God, but it is referred to as a symbol of the gospel in
several prophecies, and rain is used as a symbol of God's word.
Jesus said the sun shines on the evil and the good, and the rain
falls on the just and the unjust. The gospel will enlighten all
men too; "In him was life; and the life was the light of men"
John wrote, John 1:4. And "That was the true Light, which
lighteth every man that cometh into the world," John 1:9.
This means that all men will eventually be taught the gospel!
Jesus said, "they shall be all taught of God," John 6:45.
The rain is a symbol of God's word, for example in Isaiah's
prophecy:
Isaiah 55:9-11
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways
higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and
returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it
bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and
bread to the eater:
11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall
not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I
please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
Calvinists like old man joe trying to thwart the words of God,
which destroy their "limited atonement" doctrine, are like puny
men trying to halt the rain! It is utterly futile.
>
> that the Living God is the Savior of all men reminds His
> chosen ones
> of a similar text which says " God demonstrates His own love
> toward
> us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. "
> Ro. 5:8. had God not preserved His Creation His elect ones
> would not be. He will continue to let His rain fall on the
> wicked man's farm as well as the chosen ones farm... in this
> manner God is the Savior of " all " men... His benevolence
> extends to the lost and to the saved.
>
> Universal Atonement is not taught in this verse. Universal
> Atonement without Universal Salvation is the same as saying
> Jesus Christ failed at Calvary... that God did not send Him...
> that we must look for the real Savior and we are yet dead in
> trespasses and sins.
>
> Universal Atonement calls God a liar.
>
> when Paul writes saying " especially of believers, " it is
> crystal
> clear to the elect that our Beloved Savior Jesus Christ bore
> our sins
> on the cross and justified us freely through His blood. Ro.
> 3:24
>
> " freely " means His chosen ones didnt earn it by some
> patented
> sinners prayer, by some decision we've made, or by any other
> man
> boasting means, but while we were yet sinners, Christ died for
> " us. " Ro. 5:8. Paul is writing to believers... Ro.
> 1:1-7... those
> that perish think the things of God are ridiculous. 1 Cor.
> 1:18
Contrary to the Calvinist doctrine of "limited atonement,"
scripture teaches Christ died for all.
2 Corinthians 5:14
For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge,
that if one died for all, then were all dead:
If that were not true, the following saying would not apply to
everyone, but only some, those called the "elect." But Paul said
it is a saying that all can accept:
1 Timothy 1:15
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that
Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am
chief.
