"GoMavs" Mavericks.com> wrote in news:jaczi.5773$iA.290@trnddc05:
> pulling out of Vietnam brought the death of millions of people..
> that's the comparison.
Turning the country back over to the French after WWII, propping up the
French until they were kicked out, not allowing free elections afterward,
and going into to support a corrupt regime got millions killed. Again,
we were trying to referee a civil war with history and culture against
us. Westerners with a history going back only two hundred years going up
against cultures and traditions that have been around for a millenium or
more, with the attitude that we know what is best for them strikes me as
nationlistic egocentrism running out of control.
>> On Aug 23, 3:00 am, "Sid9" bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>> August 23, 2007
>>> 'Free Iraq' Is Within Reach, Bush Declares
>>> By JIM RUTENBERG, SHERYL GAY STOLBERG and MARK MAZZETTI
>>> KANSAS CITY, Mo., Aug. 22 - President Bush delivered a rousing
>>> defense of his Iraq policy on Wednesday, telling a group of veterans
>>> that "a free Iraq"
>>> is within reach and warning that if Americans succumb to "the allure
>>> of retreat," they will witness death and suffering of the sort not
>>> seen since
>>> the Vietnam War.
>>> "Then as now, people argued that the real problem was America's
>>> presence and
>>> that if we would just withdraw, the killing would end," Mr. Bush
>>> declared in
>>> a 45-minute speech before a Veterans of Foreign Wars convention
>>> here. He added, "The world would learn just how costly these
>>> misimpressions would
>>> In urging Americans to stay the course in Iraq, Mr. Bush is
>>> challenging the
>>> historical memory that the pullout from Vietnam had few negative
>>> repercussions for the United States and its allies.
>>> The speech was the beginning of an intense White House initiative to
>>> the debate on Capitol Hill in September, when the president's troop
>>> will undergo a re-evaluation. It came amid rising concerns in
>>> Washington over the performance of Prime Minister Nuri Kamal
>>> al-Maliki of Iraq, who has
>>> made little progress toward bridging the sectarian divide in his
>>> On Thursday, the administration is planning to make public parts of
>>> a sober
>>> new report by American intelligence agencies expressing deep doubts
>>> that the
>>> Maliki government can overcome sectarian differences. Government
>>> who have seen the report say it gives a bleak outlook on the chances
>>> Mr. Maliki can meet milestones intended to promote unity in Iraq.
>>> On Wednesday, as a second Democratic senator, Hillary Rodham Clinton
>>> of New
>>> York, called for Mr. Maliki to quit, he lashed out at American
>>> lawmakers who
>>> have questioned his competence. Mr. Bush - who on Tuesday confessed
>>> to "a certain level of frustration" with the Iraqi government -
>>> responded by using
>>> Wednesday's speech to try to shore up Mr. Maliki. "Prime Minister
>>> Maliki is
>>> a good guy, a good man with a difficult job," he said, "and I
>>> support him."
>>> All this month, members of Congress have been visiting Iraq to make
>>> their own assessments of the troop buildup and Mr. Maliki. While
>>> Republicans and
>>> even some Democrats say they are seeing military gains, Democratic
>>> and party strategists, citing the lack of political progress, vowed
>>> Wednesday to renew their efforts to end the war. Mr. Bush vowed to
>>> resist them. "We stand with the Iraqis at this difficult hour," he
>>> As the battle lines are drawn, a new advertising war is beginning to
>>> heat up, focusing on lawmakers, especially Republicans, who face
>>> tough re-election campaigns. On Wednesday, a new interest group,
>>> Freedom's Watch,
>>> led by allies of the Bush administration - including Sheldon G.
>>> Adelson, a
>>> Las Vegas casino magnate who ranks sixth on Forbes Magazine's lists
>>> of the
>>> world's billionaires - began a monthlong, $15 million campaign
>>> intended to
>>> support the president's policy.
>>> Ari Fleischer, former press secretary to Mr. Bush and a member of
>>> the group's
>>> board, said the ads would run in 20 states, in more than five dozen
>>> Congressional districts. "Anybody who is considering switching their
>>> vote is
>>> somebody we care about," he said.
>>> Presidential candidates are also staking out their positions. The
>>> was just one of several elected officials who spoke before the
>>> Veterans of
>>> Foreign Wars this week. Two top Democratic contenders - Senator
>>> Clinton and
>>> Senator Barack Obama of Illinois - have appeared, as has Senator
>>> John McCain, Republican of Arizona.
>>> Military audiences are generally safe for Mr. Bush and Wednesday's
>>> crowd came through with repeated applause. But the views expressed
>>> by the former
>>> soldiers in interviews here were hardly uniform. One, Charles
>>> Muckleston, a
>>> 77-year-old former Army sergeant from Manchester, N.J., who fought
>>> in Korea,
>>> said he did not bother to go to the hall to hear Mr. Bush. "It
>>> didn't seem
>>> worthwhile," he said. But Todd Struwe, 44, who served on the Korean
>>> Peninsula, said Mr. Bush's address was "the best one we've heard so
>>> far from
>>> all of the candidates."
>>> In the speech, Mr. Bush sought to paint the conflict in Iraq in the
>>> context of American involvement in Asia. In one fell swoop, the
>>> president likened the Iraq war to earlier conflicts in Japan and
>>> Korea - which produced democratic allies of the United States - as
>>> well as to the war in
>>> Vietnam, asserting that the American pullout there 32 years ago led
>>> to tens
>>> of thousands of deaths in that country and Cambodia. "The question
>>> now before us," he said, referring to Japan and Korea, "comes down
>>> to this: Will
>>> today's generation of Americans resist the deceptive allure of
>>> retreat and
>>> do in the Middle East what veterans in this room did in Asia?"
>>> And, in a passage that set off a bitter debate even before the
>>> speech's end,
>>> Mr. Bush suggested a quick pullout from Iraq could bring the kind of
>>> that drenched Southeast Asia three decades ago.
>>> "In Cambodia, the Khmer Rouge began a murderous rule in which
>>> hundreds of thousands of Cambodians died by starvation and torture
>>> and execution," Mr.
>>> Bush said. "In Vietnam, former allies of the United States, and
>>> workers and intellectuals and businessmen were sent off to prison
>>> camps, where tens of thousands perished. Hundreds of thousands more
>>> fled the country on rickety boats, many of them going to their
>>> graves in the South China Sea."
>>> With his comments Mr. Bush was doing something few major politicians
>>> of either party have done in a generation: rearguing a conflict that
>>> ended more
>>> than three decades ago but has remained an emotional touch point.
>>> Democrats, not surprisingly, rejected the comparison, including John
>>> the Vietnam War veteran who ran unsuccessfully against Mr. Bush in
>>> 2004. "Invoking the tragedy of Vietnam to defend the failed policy
>>> in Iraq is as
>>> irresponsible as it is ignorant of the realities of both of those
>>> wars," Mr.
>>> Kerry said.
>>> At the same time, Mr. Bush was giving rare political voice to those
>>> - many
>>> of whom were in the hall - who believe the American pullout was a
>>> "Amen," said Bob McKay, 63, who served in the Army during the
>>> Vietnam War.
>>> "That's what I fear most: We're going to pull another Vietnam."
>>> But two World War II veterans, John Rocca and Anthony Cellucci, said
>>> they had qualms about Mr. Bush's speech. They said they agreed with
>>> Mr. Obama's
>>> call for United States troops to refocus their efforts to find Osama
>>> bin Laden and his deputies in Afghanistan and Pakistan.
>>> "I don't think we belong over there," Mr. Cellucci said. "Bring the
>>> home." He added, "You fight a war, you fight it and get it over
>>> As the end of the Congressional recess draws closer, the debate over
>>> Iraq policy will only intensify, and the new intelligence
>>> assessment, called "Prospects for Iraq's Stability" is likely to
>>> play an important role in that
>>> discussion. Officials said the assessment concluded that Mr. Maliki
>>> support among Shiite groups in part because putting together a new
>>> government would be arduous. Officials in Washington and Baghdad for
>>> have said that any military gains would be ephemeral if Iraqi
>>> politicians were not able to bridge sectarian divides.
>>> The officials spoke on condition of anonymity because the report
>>> will not be
>>> issued until Thursday, and spokesmen for both the White House and
>>> the director of national intelligence declined to comment. "The
>>> report says that
>>> there's been little political progress to date, and it's very gloomy
>>> on the
>>> chances for political progress in the future," said one
>>> Congressional official with knowledge of its contents.
>>> The new report also concludes that the American military has had
>>> success in
>>> recent months in tamping down sectarian violence in the country,
>>> to officials who have read it.
>>> The report, which was intended to help anticipate events over the
>>> next 6 to
>>> 12 months, is "more dire in its assessments" than the administration
>>> has been in its own internal discussions, according to one senior
>>> official who
>>> has read it. But the report also warns, as Mr. Bush did on
>>> Wednesday, that
>>> an early withdrawal would lead to more chaos.
>>> "It doesn't take a policy position," one official said. "But it
>>> leaves you
>>> with the sense that what we've been doing hasn't been working, but
>>> we can't
>>> let up, or it'll get worse."
>> What a DESPERATE Move------Comparing a Historical Defeat with a
>> PROBABLE DEFEAT in PROGRESS. This is the Proof that Bush shows a
>> COMPLETE LACK of Historical Perspective or Knowledge. The man has GOT
>> TO GO !!!!