On May 8, 2:46Â pm, Gene Douglas
sbcglobal.net> wrote:>> On May 8, 2:47Â am, Gene Douglas
sbcglobal.net> wrote:>
>>> On May 6, 11:24Â pm, Linda Lee
hipstargraphics.com> wrote:>
>>>> On May 6, 6:19 pm, Gene Douglas
sbcglobal.net> wrote:>
>
>>>>>
ntlworld.com> wrote:>
>>>>> According to the Christian religion, Jesus was supposed to be
>>>>> crucified. Â If so, then it would be foolish to blame anybody for doing
>>>>> it, as they were only doing the will of God.
>
>>>>> Then, considering that Jesus was reported to have said, "My God, why
>>>>> have you forsaken me?" that would suggest that he didn't intend to be
>>>>> crucified, and the whole thing was an accident.
>
>>>>> It would also suggest that he was one person, and God was a seperate
>>>>> person. Â Otherwise, why would he be talking to himself?
>
>>>> He was not praying to God; he was quoting Psalms as a means of
>>>> identifying who he was: Â Ps. 22:1 Â "My God, my God, why hast thou
>>>> forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words
>>>> of my roaring?"
>
>>>> The entire 22nd Psalm is about the Messiah and his crucifixion.- Hide quoted text -
>
>>>> - Show quoted text -
>
>>> Here is the 22nd psalm. Â It says nothing about a messiah. Â This is
>>> David, writing a poem in which he speaks to God. Â The "I" is David, or
>>> any person reading it. Â Nowhere, here or elsewhere, does it say that
>>> David was a prophet.
>
>>> Apparently Jesus would have been quoting this verse, though if I were
>>> quoting it, I would not be proving I am God. Â It may be, however, that
>>> it was not intended as a prayer, so far as absolute interpretation
>>> with certainty is concerned. Â It may also be that scribes in later
>>> centuries inserted that statement in order to increase his appearance
>>> of authenticity.
>
>>> Psalm 22
>
>>> Â 1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
>>> Â Â Â Â Why are you so far from saving me,
>>> Â Â Â Â so far from the words of my groaning?
>
>>> Â 2 O my God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
>>> Â Â Â Â by night, and am not silent.
>
>>> Â 3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
>>> Â Â Â Â you are the praise of Israel. [a]
>
>>> Â 4 In you our fathers put their trust;
>>> Â Â Â Â they trusted and you delivered them.
>
>>> Â 5 They cried to you and were saved;
>>> Â Â Â Â in you they trusted and were not disappointed.
>
>>> Â 6 But I am a worm and not a man,
>>> Â Â Â Â scorned by men and despised by the people.
>
>>> Â 7 All who see me mock me;
>>> Â Â Â Â they hurl insults, shaking their heads:
>
>>> Â 8 "He trusts in the LORD;
>>> Â Â Â Â let the LORD rescue him.
>>> Â Â Â Â Let him deliver him,
>>> Â Â Â Â since he delights in him."
>
>>> Â 9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
>>> Â Â Â Â you made me trust in you
>>> Â Â Â Â even at my mother's breast.
>
>>> Â 10 From birth I was cast upon you;
>>> Â Â Â Â from my mother's womb you have been my God.
>
>>> Â 11 Do not be far from me,
>>> Â Â Â Â for trouble is near
>>> Â Â Â Â and there is no one to help.
>
>>> Â 12 Many bulls surround me;
>>> Â Â Â Â strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
>
>>> Â 13 Roaring lions tearing their prey
>>> Â Â Â Â open their mouths wide against me.
>
>>> Â 14 I am poured out like water,
>>> Â Â Â Â and all my bones are out of joint.
>>> Â Â Â Â My heart has turned to wax;
>>> Â Â Â Â it has melted away within me.
>
>>> Â 15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
>>> Â Â Â Â and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
>>> Â Â Â Â you lay me [b] in the dust of death.
>
>>> Â 16 Dogs have surrounded me;
>>> Â Â Â Â a band of evil men has encircled me,
>>> Â Â Â Â they have pierced [c] my hands and my feet.
>
>>> Â 17 I can count all my bones;
>>> Â Â Â Â people stare and gloat over me.
>
>>> Â 18 They divide my garments among them
>>> Â Â Â Â and cast lots for my clothing.
>
>>> Â 19 But you, O LORD, be not far off;
>>> Â Â Â Â O my Strength, come quickly to help me.
>
>>> Â 20 Deliver my life from the sword,
>>> Â Â Â Â my precious life from the power of the dogs.
>
>>> Â 21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;
>>> Â Â Â Â save [d] me from the horns of the wild oxen.
>
>>> Â 22 I will declare your name to my brothers;
>>> Â Â Â Â in the congregation I will praise you.
>
>>> Â 23 You who fear the LORD, praise him!
>>> Â Â Â Â All you descendants of Jacob, honor him!
>>> Â Â Â Â Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!
>
>>> Â 24 For he has not despised or disdained
>>> Â Â Â Â the suffering of the afflicted one;
>>> Â Â Â Â he has not hidden his face from him
>>> Â Â Â Â but has listened to his cry for help.
>
>>> Â 25 From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly;
>>> Â Â Â Â before those who fear you [e] will I fulfill my vows.
>
>>> Â 26 The poor will eat and be satisfied;
>>>     they who seek the LORD will praise him—
>>> Â Â Â Â may your hearts live forever!
>
>>> Â 27 All the ends of the earth
>>> Â Â Â Â will remember and turn to the LORD,
>>> Â Â Â Â and all the families of the nations
>>> Â Â Â Â will bow down before him,
>
>>> Â 28 for dominion belongs to the LORD
>>> Â Â Â Â and he rules over the nations.
>
>>> Â 29 All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;
>>>     all who go down to the dust will kneel before him—
>>> Â Â Â Â those who cannot keep themselves alive.
>
>>> Â 30 Posterity will serve him;
>>> Â Â Â Â future generations will be told about the Lord.
>
>>> Â 31 They will proclaim his righteousness
>>>     to a people yet unborn—
>>> Â Â Â Â for he has done it.
>
>> Well, Gene, I think you will admit there are some pretty good hints,
>> but I agree with you 100%% that if He was trying to give a proof that
>> He was Messiah or God, that proof fails entirely. Â There is nothing
>> here but poetic innuendo. Â (...)
>
> I was thinking, if I were being tortured to death, would I quote
> scripture at the time? Â It seems really, really unlikely, especially
> if I had just been scourged for half a day, and had then been forced
> to carry a beam weighing a hundred pounds up a mountain. Â The
> likelihood that scribes inserted it centuries later, to support their
> doctrine, seems all the more likely.
Yeah, but you're not Him, i.e. you're not a spiritual master capable
of doing miracles such as raising the dead. Nonetheless, I don't
think being spiritually detached means that you become a mechanistic
cyborg without real human feelings. Linda, I believe, has a dearth of
real human feelings, but that comes from a complete lack of spiritual
attainment.
