re: zionism

By emphasizing that German (including of course Herzl of Austria)
Jews were involved in seeking zionism, you're deliberately ignoring
history, 3-4 thousand years of Jewish history.

Zionism is an ambiguous concept, and it certainly has beaucoup
nuances.

Quoting Meir Kahane as zionism personified is rhetorical over-kill.

Correct: Fifty percent or more of the Jews in Israel are agnostic,
atheistic, humanistic etal.

Contemporary zionism is the product of what Jews particularly
experienced since the conversion of the Roman Empire to Christianity.

Herzl was a secularist, not a religious type.

When Dreyfus was allegedly framed by the military establishment of
the most liberal & tolerant nation then on Earth, founder Herzl
concluded France/Europe was hopeless.

And, yeah, socialism-romanticism was Herzl's ideal.

The Shoah subsequently influenced the overwhelming masses, including
the UN in 1948.

re: relative morality of Israel's existence

On May 21, 9:32 am, "Frank R.A.J. Maloney" blarg.net> wrote:

And thick as 10 planks.

B.H. Cramer wrote:

*PLONK*

On May 23, 4:26 am, Robert Cohen msn.com> wrote:

I was referring to the 19th century origins of Zionism (in 'Aryan'
racialising discourse), a racist political ideology, not to the
historical origins of Judaism, a religion.

Needless to say, this is always a controversial topic (and more often
than not, it's discussion attracts raving, hysterical zombies only
interested in hurling abuse, as some of the responses here already...

re: h.b.'s reality

I perceive h.b.'s take of z as rigid & dogmatic.

There are many adaptations of z.

The Knesset (Israeli legislature or Parliament) is composed of several
(4-8?) political parties or factions.

Each party defines z somewhat differently.

The left-liberal HARRETZ definition differs from the right-
conservative JERUSALEM POST.

For me and many/most others:

Z is Jewish nationalism.

I wouldn't expect particularly the Orthodox to agree with me about the
meanings of z.

Orthodox disagree with other Orthodox.

Some Orthodox do not accept modern zionism, though they may reside
there.

Rightwing secular zionists disagree with leftwing secular zionists.

Z is dynamic, and nobody exists in an ideological vacuum, no matter
that some try.

On May 23, 9:03 pm, Robert Cohen msn.com> wrote:

We were discussing the origins of Zionism, not 'h.b.'s reality'. You
seem to be deliberately distancing yourself from this discussion, as
if your views were not actually your views, while simultaneously
appearing to remain a Zionist apologist.

You are mistaking lucidity and clarity on the subject for the 'rigid
and dogmatic.'

It doesn't matter how many 'adaptations' of Zionism there are: none of
them question it's fundamental racist assumptions, none of them, that
is, are anti-Zionist/anti-racist/anti-semitic. In many ways those who
put a 'liberal' spin on it are just as bad as the extremists, either
mystifying it as 'complex' or disavowing any direct identification
with it while simultaneously opposing all attempts at confronting or
changing it.

re: nationalism, universalism

Mankind is the sum total of evolution.

We've been pond scum, cave-persons, semi noble savages, tribalists,
nationalists, and some are ideologue universalists.

Since Rome prevailed in ancient Israel, Jews had been a landless
people, subject to the folkways, mores, institutions, and laws of non
Jews.

Despite diffusion and absorption including voluntary & forced
conversion, Jews held-on to a spritual identity with Israel.

Despite a high inter-marriage rate in Germany particularly, Jews re-
discovered that even the liberal secularists (the Heidiggerists)
reject their Jewish colleagues as "landsmen."

Pragmatism & expediency are reality.

Modern zionism is not impractical for the stateless refugee, and
surviving against enemies is ...self defense & "expediency."

On May 24, 1:22 am, Robert Cohen msn.com> wrote:

Totally meaningless claptrap.

You forgot to include film stars, media tycoons, medieval warriors,
feudal despots, tyrannical ego-maniacs ... the list is endless ...
what's your point?

This is pure fantasmatic idiocy. Clearly, you are attempting to
RACIALISE those who subscribe to the religion of Judaism.

re: reality sucks and then I die

I'll leave it here, and continue rationalizing worries about the usual
shite, while you obliviously fantasize as a Jimmy Stewart.