On Mar 8, 7:12 pm, "Aaron"
hotmail.com> wrote:> On Feb 26, 10:50 pm, Publius
nospam.comcast.net> wrote:>
>>> The most powerful computer imaginable, could not perfectly predict its
>>> own behaviour. This is because every act of prediction is itself a new
>>> behaviour, the effects of which the computer must then take into
>>> account. Since our machine is trying to predict itself, every time it
>>> begins the attempt, the "itself" becomes more complicated by this act
>>> of prediction, and therefore the prediction must also become more
>>> complicated. This complexity will increase without end, to infinity,
>>> as long as the computer is taking into account its entire self in
>>> trying to predict its future behaviour. Taking into account all
>>> relevant variables, however, is what any complete prediction requires,
>>> and therefore it requires being outside the system.
>
>>> At the human level, if we assume that our minds are finite, and that
>>> our expectations affect our decisions, then predicting our own future
>>> is not a question of having enough knowledge, nor even a question of
>>> whether the universe is fundamentally deterministic. It is simply a
>>> logical impossibility for a finite reasoning entity to predict its own
>>> reasoning - and therefore its own decisions - with 100%% reliability.
>
>>> Regardless of whether we consider the universe deterministic, there is
>>> no (knowable) inevitability about our future behaviour. This is
>>> because any knowledge about the decisions we may or may not make, can
>>> affect the decisions we eventually do make.
>
>>> Our will may be causally determined (or may not), but putting time and
>>> effort into our choices, makes a difference to those choices, and no
>>> amount of knowledge about physics or psychology, will ever reduce our
>>> decisions to inevitability, as far as the person deciding is
>>> concerned.
>
>> That is not a bad discussion. Now you just have to realize that if the system
>> is in principle unpredictable, then the claim that it is "fundamentally
>> deterministic" is either false or meaningless.
>
> I pretty much read this thread. I admit I am confused. This is how I
> feel about free will. Can someone point out why it is not so cut and
> dry as this?
>
> (1) Free will is the ability to decide what actions to take (2) Making
> a decision involves a consious process of thought (3) Thoughts do not
> arise from anything, rather they happen, one leading to the next. (4)
> Thus, since we do not control what thoughts we have, we do not control
> what actions we take and do not have free will.
as with much of philosophy
the issue depends greatly on definitions chosen
both freewill theories and determinism
can recognise a will
ie. there appear to be centers of decision making
that control how matter gets manipulated
including how our bodies react
goals can be associated choices made by centers of control
here we can define control
in the manner of mathematical control theory
which is basically the ability to bring a system
to various parts of its state space
none of that depends on determinism versus other forms of models
(stochastic, choice, etc.)
additionally
there is the issue of others being able to prediction
as chaos theory has drilled into everyone's heads these days
deterministic theories are not necessarily very predictable
so if "free"dom in freewill means predictability
then there is again no correlation to determinism
however
if freedom means
in a modal logic applicable to experience
that there is a possibility to
counterfactually
have chosen otherwise
then that type of freedom only matches
a small subset of physical theories
that can explain counterfactualism
in that case
though
as far as i know
determinism is ruled out
> I'm not saying I'm correct on this, I just haven't been able to find a
> rebuttle that I can understand.
it could be as simple as a disagreement on definitions
derivations don't make sense
until you agree on what you are talking about
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galathaea: prankster, fablist, magician, liar
