On Dec 30, 2:56 pm, cactus
nonespam.com> wrote:>> On Dec 30, 12:40 am, cactus
nonespam.com> wrote:>>> Terry Cross wrote:
>>>>> On 20-Dec-2007, cactus
nonespam.com> wrote:>>>>>>> I repeat: The Khazars are the people who lived in western Russia and
>>>>>>> converted en masse to Judaism in about 600 AD. They are the blood
>>>>>>> ancestors of most of the Ashkenazi Jews in Europe.
>>>>>> And I repeat the question that you dishonestly snipped from the earlier
>>>>>> post: > What do Khazars have anything to do with this?
>>>>> Why do you expect her to answer honestly when she has only repeated her lie,
>>>>> above?
>>>>> Susan
>>>> I did not introduce the subject of Khazars; I explained it. When you
>>>> speak of Jews, you speak of Khazars.
>>> Jews come from all over. Khazars are one group that converted en masse.
>>> It is wrong to believe that is where all the Ashkenazim originated
>>> because the Khazars did not magically move into Europe after their
>>> conversion.
>
>>> Stupid.
>
>>> The real descendants of the
>
>>>> Hebrews are the natives of the Middle east - Palestinians, Samaritans,
>>>> Lebanese, Jordanians, and the rest.
>>> People can become Jewish by conversion as well, and they have. What do
>>> Hebrews have to do with this? This is just adding another meaningless
>>> term to your word salad.-
>
>> The mistreatment of Jews in Arab lands was universal. From the
>> beginning of Islam in 622 C.E. Islam preached an anti-Jewish gospel.
>> In 627 Mohammed's followers killed 900 Jews in Arabia for the "sin" of
>> refusing conversion to the new religion. The Koran, the Scripture of
>> the Moslems, includes these verses: (Sura 2:61) "They (the Jews) are
>> consigned to humiliation and wretchedness. They brought the wrath of
>> God upon themselves etc." In Sura 5:64 "the Jews" are accused of
>> corruption, in 5:76 "the Jews" are disobedient and in 21:9798 the Jews
>> are the enemies of Allah and the angels. Jews, throughout Moslem
>> history, had to pay a special tax. Jews were forbidden, on pain of
>> death, to criticize the Koran. This applied to Christians as well.
>> Jews were forbidden to touch a Moslem woman although Moslem men are
>> allowed to deal with Jewish women. Jews were always excluded from
>> public office, were not allowed to ride horses or camels, could not
>> build a synagogue higher than a mosque, nor drink wine in public. Jews
>> were not allowed to pray, except at home, and Jews had to get off the
>> sidewalk if a Moslem passed by. A Jew could not testify in a Moslem
>> court. In addition, Jews and Christians had to wear distinctive
>> clothes including a yellow badge, an idea which was adopted by the
>> Nazi brutes in the 1940's.
>
>> Sudden persecutions, violence and murder were constant events in the
>> lives of the Jewish communities in Moslem lands. For example, in 1066
>> Arab mobs murdered Joseph HaNagid, the most prominent member of the
>> Granada Jewish community and then slaughtered all 5,000 Jews in that
>> city. In 1465 Arab mobs attacked the Jews of Fez in Morocco, killing
>> thousands. In the 12th century similar murders of Jews took place in
>> North Africa and as late as 1785 hundreds of Jews were murdered in
>> Libya. In 1805, 1830 and 1880 massacres of Jews occurred in Marrakesh.
>
>> Synagogues were burnt in Egypt, Syria, Iraq, and Yemen for centuries.
>> Repeatedly Jews were forced to convert to Islam or face death. The
>> Jews in all Arab countries lived in ghettos (from get, a Hebrew word
>> for divorce or separation). Jews in Morocco were forced to walk
>> barefoot as Moslem children were encouraged to throw stones at Jews on
>> the street. In the Ottoman Empire "ritual murder" was attributed to
>> Jews every year at Pesach. These horrors continued until the Jews of
>> Israel made themselves independent despite the United Nations and the
>> Arab haters.
>
>> Therefore, do not fall for the propaganda that the trouble between
>> Jews and Arabs was caused by the establishment of Israel. Exactly
>> the opposite. If Israel did not exist, the Jews in Arab lands would
>> still be in the ghetto, still the butt of Moslem hatred.
>> In sum, we learn here that the Exodus from Arab lands was as much a
>> liberation from slavery as the first Exodus. Let us, after the recent
>> Pesach season, keep that in mind and stand up for the rights of the
>> Jews from Egypt and Jordan, from Iraq and Yemen, from Syria and Iran
>> from all those places who have not yet learned the lesson of Leviticus
>> 19:18 (Look it up).
>
>> Shalom u'vracha.
>
>
>> Jim
>
>> Isa 35:10 -And the ransomed of the LORD shall return, and come to Zion
>> with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy
>> and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.
>
> Interesting, thank you. But Jews and Muslims did get along well in Spain
> for centuries, and many Jews fled to Turkey after the Iberian Peninsula
> was dragged into darkness by Ferdinand and Isabella.-
Miss Armstrong can look after herself in her row with the critic of
Islam, Robert Spencer.
But I must say I was annoyed by another claim she made in her review
of Spencer's book. This is something one hears all the time. "In
Muslim Spain," she wrote, "relations between the three religions of
Abraham were uniquely harmonious in medieval Europe."
This is simply not true. The centuries between the Muslim invasion of
Spain in 711 and the reconquest of their last enclave in 1492 were
characterised by warfare, double-dealing, opportunist alliances,
expropriation, punitive taxation and persecution.
The nearest that Islamic Spain got to a peace-loving polity was the
Caliphate of Cordoba, which existed between 929 and 1031, just over
100 years out of more than 700 years of occupation.
Its political status rested on dubious ground, for its founder claimed
to be Caliph of the whole world from his stronghold in Spain, when
there was already a Caliph in Baghdad. The Fatimids in North Africa
also claimed the Caliphate in rivalry to Cordoba.
The mosque at Cordoba, that great beauty of world architecture, was
built on the site of the church of St Vincent, demolished to make way
for it. In the early years after the Muslim invasion, Christians had
been allowed to worship in part of the cathedral site, all their other
churches having been demolished at the conquest. But under the
Ummayyads, the founders of the Caliphate of Cordoba, the Christians
had to relinquish their part of St Vincent's.
Under the Caliphate of Cordoba, it was not just the Christians of
northern Spain who fought to gain territory. The 10th-century de facto
ruler of the caliphate, al-Mansur, fought expansionist wars, sacking
Barcelona in 985 and Santiago in 997. He had already defeated his
father-in-law in battle, with Muslims and Christians fighting on both
sides. That is unique harmony of a sort.
After the collapse of the Caliphate in civil war, things got no
better. There is a statue in Cordoba to Moses Maimonides, the great
Jewish philosopher. But Maimonides and his family had to flee Spain to
escape persecution by the ruling Muslim dynasty.
The 12th-century Muslim thinker, Ibn-Rushd, known as Averroes to
Christian philosophers, who took him very seriously, was also banished
from the Spanish peninsula by the intolerant Almohad rulers.
I suppose if you had to choose which Muslim regime to live under in
the Middle Ages, the Caliphate of Cordoba would be a good choice, but
let's not pretend it was a secular liberal state.
Posted by Christopher Howse on 30 Apr 2007 at 15:05
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/ukcorrespondents/christopherhowse/apr2007/themuslimruleofspain...
Jim
