> Sonofagunzel wrote:

>>
>>
>> Me: > > How do you know that consciousness is not merely the sensation
>> we feel

>>>> as these physical processes are going on? How do you know
>>>> consciousness is not just the physical sensation of the "theatre of the
>>>> mind" in action, albeit that the operation of that theatre is governed
>>>> by the laws of physics and our thoughts and actions predetermined by
>>>> those laws?
>>>>
>>>> Do you not see that there is an evolutionary advantage in being able to
>>>> anticipate the outcome of a given set of circumstances based on
>>>> experience and learning of prior circumstances?

>>
>> You will need to answer the above questions eventually.

> someone3 wrote:

>> Sonofagunzel wrote:

>>>
>>>
>>> Me: > > How do you know that consciousness is not merely the sensation
>>> we feel

>>>>> as these physical processes are going on? How do you know
>>>>> consciousness is not just the physical sensation of the "theatre of the
>>>>> mind" in action, albeit that the operation of that theatre is governed
>>>>> by the laws of physics and our thoughts and actions predetermined by
>>>>> those laws?
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you not see that there is an evolutionary advantage in being able to
>>>>> anticipate the outcome of a given set of circumstances based on
>>>>> experience and learning of prior circumstances?

>>>
>>> You will need to answer the above questions eventually.

>
> I will leave the above questions unsnipped until you're ready to answer ...

>>>> Me: > > How do you know that consciousness is not merely the sensation
>>>> we feel

>>>>>> as these physical processes are going on? How do you know
>>>>>> consciousness is not just the physical sensation of the "theatre of the
>>>>>> mind" in action, albeit that the operation of that theatre is governed
>>>>>> by the laws of physics and our thoughts and actions predetermined by
>>>>>> those laws?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Do you not see that there is an evolutionary advantage in being able to
>>>>>> anticipate the outcome of a given set of circumstances based on
>>>>>> experience and learning of prior circumstances?

>>> In other words the consciousness is what senses the sensations.

>>
>> I understand what you mean more clearly now, and it changes what I have
>> said previously. My view is that consciousness...

> OK - sounds like we are making progress.
>

>>>>> Me: > > How do you know that consciousness is not merely the sensation
>>>>> we feel

>>>>>>> as these physical processes are going on? How do you know
>>>>>>> consciousness is not just the physical sensation of the "theatre of the
>>>>>>> mind" in action, albeit that the operation of that theatre is governed
>>>>>>> by the laws of physics and our thoughts and actions predetermined by
>>>>>>> those laws?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Do you not see that there is an evolutionary advantage in being able to
>>>>>>> anticipate the outcome of a given set of circumstances based on
>>>>>>> experience and learning of prior circumstances?

>
> PDS
>
>
>

>>>> In other words the consciousness is what senses the sensations. ...

>>>>>> Me: > > How do you know that consciousness is not merely the sensation
>>>>>> we feel

>>>>>>>> as these physical processes are going on? How do you know
>>>>>>>> consciousness is not just the physical sensation of the "theatre of the
>>>>>>>> mind" in action, albeit that the operation of that theatre is governed
>>>>>>>> by the laws of physics and our thoughts and actions predetermined by
>>>>>>>> those laws?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Do you not see that there is an evolutionary advantage in being able to
>>>>>>>> anticipate the outcome of a given set of circumstances based on
>>>>>>>> experience and learning of prior circumstances?

>>
>> PDS
>>

>>>>> In other words the consciousness is what senses the sensations.

>>>>
>>>> I understand what you mean more clearly now, and it changes what I have
>>>> said previously. My view is that consciousness is the sum of the
>>>> sensations, not that which senses the sensations. For example, I would
>>>> call sight and the experience of visual memory as part of ...

> I think there is an element of common sense in your thief example. But
> I also a firm believer in over-analysing this sort of side issue so am
> happy to drop it until it becomes a problem.

> indicates that the 'experience of consciousness' could have been
> anything (in principle), as it doesn't alter how the actual mechanism
> follows the laws of physics (which actually determines behaviour), it
> was just caused by it (as indicated in your diagram). If so then I
> agree that this seems rational given the materialistic perspective.

> Sonofagunzel wrote:
>

>> In my view, for free will to exist, two things must be true:
>> 1. our actions are not predetermined
>> 2. we can determine what our actions will be.

>
> The problem with 2 is that it's vague and hard to understand. If you
> mean we must be able to choose any action, then the fact that I can't
> choose to be invisible means I don't have free will. If you change it
> to mean that we must be able to choose any *possible* action, then any
> set of limitations (restricting what is possible) is still consistent
> with free will.
>

> JoelKatz wrote:

>> Sonofagunzel wrote:
>>

>>> In my view, for free will to exist, two things must be true:
>>> 1. our actions are not predetermined
>>> 2. we can determine what our actions will be.

>>
>> The problem with 2 is that it's vague and hard to understand. If you
>> mean we must be able to choose any action, then the fact that I can't
>> choose to be invisible means I don't have free will. If you change it
>> to mean that we must be able to choose any *possible* action, then any
>> set of limitations (restricting what is possible) is still consistent
>> with free will.
>>

> Well said

> - there is another problem, Who exactly are "we" that is
> doing the choosing - its a a question of where do you draw the
> boundary.
>
> There is Cartesian thinking implicit in the idea of free will...

> Sonofagunzel wrote:

>> someone3 wrote:

>>>> Me: How do you know that consciousness is not merely the sensation we feel
>>>> as these physical processes are going on? How do you know
>>>> consciousness is not just the physical sensation of the "theatre of the
>>>> mind" in action, albeit that the operation of that theatre is governed
>>>> by the laws of physics and our thoughts and actions predetermined by
>>>> those laws?

>>>> Do you not see that there is an evolutionary advantage in being able to
>>>> anticipate the outcome of a given set of circumstances based on
>>>> experience and learning of prior circumstances?
>>>>
>>>> PDS
>>>>

>
> Yes, but as you have agreed the conscious experience itself wouldn't
> have any evolutionary advantage.