Re: When Space Aliens Ask Us About God, What Will We Answer?
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Re: When Space Aliens Ask Us About God, What Will We Answer?         

Group: alt.philosophy · Group Profile
Author: saint7peter
Date: May 27, 2008 16:06

On May 27, 3:08 pm, "pba...@worldonline.nl"
wrote:
> On 27 mei, 23:52, saint7pe...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>> On May 27, 2:29 pm, "pba...@worldonline.nl"
>> wrote:
>
>>> On 27 mei, 23:01, saint7pe...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>>>> On May 26, 9:54 pm, "Smiler" Joe.King.com> wrote:
>
>>>>> "Mark K. Bilbo" wrote in messagenews:h80sg5-ji1.ln1@75-104-203-24.cust.wildblue.net...
>
>>>>>> saint7pe...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>> On May 26, 6:48 am, "Mark K. Bilbo" wrote:
>>>>>>>> saint7pe...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On May 25, 10:19 am, Don Stockbauer hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> When Space Aliens Ask Us About God, What Will We Answer?
>>>>>>>>>> ***********************************
>>>>>>>>>> That God and The Universe are identical.
>>>>>>>>> No, because the universe runs automatically, by definition, while God
>>>>>>>>> does not.  If we have free will it is only through God, who is the
>>>>>>>>> principle of free will.
>>>>>>>> "The principle of free will" is content free semantic gibberish...
>
>>>>>>> No it isn't.  Do you want to have a debate?
>
>>>>>> I would love a debate. You know anybody who can?
>
>>>>> Yep. But they're all atheists.
>
>>>>> Smiler,
>
>>>> If you don't want to debate non-atheists, what are you doing here on
>>>> alt.messianic?  Just being an asshole?- Tekst uit oorspronkelijk bericht niet weergeven -
>
>>>> - Tekst uit oorspronkelijk bericht weergeven -
>
>>> He was replied to a SOT crosspost
>>> You are right, he shouldn't
>>> SOT doesn't debate, just blasts his/her horn.
>
>>> If you want to debate with an athiest though,
>>> I'm all yours.
>>> If you want to snip either alt.atheism or alt.messianic you are also
>>> welcome.
>
>>> Love,
>
>>> Peter van Velzen
>>> May 2008
>>> Amstelveen
>>> The Netherlands
>
>> Definitions from Wikipedia:
>
> I will be so bold as to snip most of this.
> If needed we can always get back to it in Wikepedia
>
>
>
> This last portion I would like to keep in, because it was a turnover
> in my understanding of morality that turned me in to an atheist.
>
>> Anthropocentric arguments
>> Further information: Philosophical anthropology, Humanism
>> Axiological, or constructive, atheism rejects the existence of gods in
>> favor of a "higher absolute", such as humanity. This form of atheism
>> favors humanity as the absolute source of ethics and values, and
>> permits individuals to resolve moral problems without resorting to
>> God. Marx, Nietzsche, Freud, and Sartre all used this argument to
>> convey messages of liberation, full-development, and unfettered
>> happiness.[43]
>
>> One of the most common criticisms of atheism has been to the contrary—
>> that denying the existence of a just God leads to moral relativism,
>> leaving one with no moral or ethical foundation,[57] or renders life
>> meaningless and miserable.[58] Blaise Pascal argued this view in 1669.
>> [59]
>
> My personal views on Morality I have published on my own website:http://www.xs4all.nl/~velzen5/Morality.html
>
> If you wish to debate anything I would prefer it to be this.
>
> Love,
>
> Peter van Velzen
> May 2008
> Amstelveen
> The Netherlands

You say: That is we both [atheist & agnostic] realize that those who
claim to be Gnostic really don't know anything.

I say: You badly misunderstand the meaning of Gnosticism. In the
Diamond Sutra, it says that Buddha has

1. the human eye
2. the divine eye
3. the gnostic eye
4. the eye of transcendental wisdom, and
5. the Buddha eye of omniscience.

The Gnostic is a Humanist. He puts himself above God in matters of
morality and indeed takes it upon himself to judge God and be
responsible for any God that is believed in. For instance, a Gnostic
must come to the conclusion that the God of the Old Testament was an
evil God, who lacked the morality of even an average human being.
Belief in Jesus is belief in a fellow Human Being, i.e. it is
Humanism. The morality of Jesus is indeed something that can be
debated, as is His degree of spiritual attainment. Jesus clearly
rebuked not just the Jews but their God, and He included Moses in His
rebuke (See Mark 3.4). On the other hand, He was less than
straightforward about this, and He left his followers in quite a state
of confusion.

THE DECEIVER AND ENEMY OF MANKIND

Genesis 2

16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying: ‘Of every tree of the
garden thou mayest freely eat;

17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not
eat of it; for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely
die.’

Genesis 3

4 And the serpent said unto the woman: ‘Ye shall not surely die;

5 for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes
shall be opened, and ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil.’

6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it
was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make
one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat; and she gave
also unto her husband with her, and he did eat.

14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent: ‘Because thou hast done
this, cursed art thou from among all cattle, and from among all beasts
of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat
all the days of thy life.’

22 And the LORD God said: ‘Behold, the man is become as one of us, to
know good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also
of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever.’

23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to
till the ground from whence he was taken.

24 So He drove out the man; and He placed at the east of the garden of
Eden the cherubim, and the flaming sword which turned every way, to
keep the way to the tree of life.

Genesis 11

6 And the LORD said: ‘Behold, they are one people, and they have all
one language; and this is what they begin to do; and now nothing will
be withholden from them, which they purpose to do.

7 Come, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they
may not understand one another's speech.’

8 So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all
the earth; and they left off to build the city.

9 Therefore was the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did
there confound the language of all the earth; and from thence did the
LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.

10 These are the generations of Shem. …

WHO IS THE LORD GOD (JHVH EL) OF GENESIS 2 AND 3?

From the names in classical order (above), JHVH EL is a compound of
the first, fifth, and seventh archangels. He attempts to dominate,
deny altogether, and persecute the One who corresponds to the third
archangel, namely JHVSA, or JEHOSHUA, aka Jesus. The archetypal
relationship of JHVH EL to JHVSA and all He represents has clarified
the very essence of the character of JHVH EL: He is a powermad tyrant
of whom it may be said that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts
absolutely.

Conclusion: The compound name JHVH EL, translated as LORD God, is a
false god. Whenever it appears in the Torah, or elsewhere, its real
intent has already been telegraphed in the Biblical verses quoted
above – its intent is to deceive and deprive mankind by persecuting
its true advocate. The irony is that only those who want to be
deceived will be deceived – those who want to know the truth of G-D
can find it hidden ever so slightly behind the gossamer veil. Simply
discard the false formation, JHVH EL, and the entire archetype of all
the other names of G-D stands revealed. The true name of G-D that
unifies all the others is JHVSA ALHJM, or JEHOSHUA ELOHIM. JEHOSHUA
MOSHIACH is the G-D of love.

40 DAYS IN THE WILDERNESS – ATROCITIES BY THE “LORD God.â€

1. Offered an alliance of marriage with the royal family of the
Hivites, Jacob's sons convince the men of a town to get circumcised.
While the men are recovering, Jacob's sons slaughter them, loot the
town of goods and cattle, and carry off all the women and children as
slaves (Genesis 34:1-17, 24-31).
2. During the sojourn in Egypt: Despite Egyptian expertise in
medicine, Jewish midwives are better and achieve higher live birth
rate; Pharaoh fears demographic imbalance. Ignoring that females bear
babies, not males, Pharaoh orders midwives to kill newly born Hebrew
males (Exodus 1:15-22). Midwives disobey and make excuses to Pharaoh.
Decades later, LORD God strikes back, allowing Pharaoh to live but
killing all the firstborn of Egypt (Exodus 12:12-14). LORD God orders
that His justice be commemorated as "an ordinance for ever." This is
Passover.
3. Three thousand naked golden calf worshippers massacred. "Thus saith
the LORD God of Israel … slay every man his brother, and every man his
companion, and every man his neighbour." After the event, Moses
praises them for killing their own sons and brothers. (Exodus
32:25-29)
4. LORD God opens the earth and swallows up Korah, Dathan, Abiram, and
their tents, their wives, and little ones. Another 250 men burned to
death. All killed for accusing Moses of taking on airs and graces, and
raising questions about the quality of his leadership. (Numbers
16:1-3, 23-35)
5. LORD God sends a plague and kills 14,700 Israelites for blaming
Moses and Aaron for their handling of the Korah problem (Numbers
16:41-49). Plague halted by Aaron burning incense.
6. Balaam prophecies Hebrews will exterminate Moabites, children of
Sheth; Edom, Seir; Amalek, Kenites, Asshur, Eber (Numbers 24:17-25)
7. LORD God orders, through Moses, the extermination of the male
Midianites and their five kings. (Numbers 31:7-12). Why was
extermination ordered? After Hebrew men fornicated with Midianite
women, they caught a venereal disease and 24,000 died (Numbers 25).
The Midianites had sheltered Moses when he fled from Egypt, and they
gave Moses his first wife, Zipporah, who bore him his first son.
(Exodus 2:15-22) Were Moses' benefactors and in-laws among those
slaughtered?
8. The Midianite women and children are taken captive. Later, Moses
orders that they be murdered, but spares the little virgin girls so
they can be used as concubines (Numbers 31:13-18, 32-35). The Talmud
Sages use these verses to justify grown men having sexual intercourse
with little girls, three years old and younger. See Sex with Children
by Talmud Rules.
9. LORD God orders depopulation and destruction of civilization in the
Promised Land (Numbers 33:50-56); religious imagery and art work must
also be destroyed.
10. LORD God commands the Hebrews to "utterly destroy" the seven
nations that are in the Promised Land, "nor shew mercy unto them." In
addition, the Hebrews must "destroy" everything of those cultures
(Deuteronomy 7:1-6).
11. LORD God orders death for the prophet, the dreamer of dreams, and
he who performs miracles — if he tries to convert Hebrews to a new
faith (Deuteronomy 13:1-5).
12. LORD God orders every Israelite to kill "thy brother … or thy son,
or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as
thine own soul" if they stray from LORD God worship. "… Thine hand
shall be first upon him to put him to death …" (Deuteronomy 13:6-11).
Compare to ideas expressed in the Declaration of Independence and the
Bill of Rights.
13. LORD God blames "children of Belial" for seducing Israelites to
other religions, and orders the massacre of seduced cities
(Deuteronomy 13:12-18).
14. LORD God orders extermination of the Amaleks (Deuteronomy
25:17-19); "… thou shalt blot out the remembrance of Amalek from under
heaven; thou shalt not forget it."
15. LORD God orders Hebrews to exterminate the people of Jericho
(Joshua 6:1-2, 20-24); "And they utterly destroyed all that was in the
city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass,
with the edge of the sword."
16. LORD God orders extermination the inhabitants of Ai and their king
(Joshua 8:1-2, 18-29); Twelve thousand killed. "And Joshua burnt Ai,
and made it an heap for ever, even a desolation unto this day."
17. The Hebrews take captive the five Amorite kings, torture them, and
hang their bodies from trees. (Joshua 10:22-27)
18. LORD God orders the Hebrews to attack and utterly destroy a
multitude of cities, and kill all the inhabitants. (Joshua 10:28-43).
19. LORD God orders extermination of Canaanites, Amorites, Hittites,
Perizzites, Jebusites, Hivites, and their kings; horses crippled and
left to die (Joshua 11:1-9)
20. LORD God orders extermination of the Hazorites, the people of
Goshen and Baalgad, the Anakims (Joshua 11: 10-23); "And they smote
all the souls that were therein with the edge of the sword, utterly
destroying them: there was not any left to breathe: and he burnt Hazor
with fire."
21. LORD God gives military victory to Jephthah in return for the
promise of a human sacrifice. As fate would have it, the victim turns
out to be Jephthah's beloved daughter, his only child, but he performs
the sacrifice as promised. (Judges 11:30-40)
22. LORD God sends Hebrew tribe of Judah against the Hebrew tribe of
Benjamin; Judah loses 22,000 men (Judges 20:15-21)
23. LORD God sends the other Hebrew tribes against the Hebrew tribe of
Benjamin; The Hebrews lose 18,000 men (Judges 20:23-25)
24. LORD God continues to send the non-Benjamin Hebrews against the
Benjamin Hebrews: the remaining 25,000 Benjamin Hebrew men-at-arms are
killed, and all their elders, women, children, and cattle. Only 600
Benjamin Hebrews escape the slaughter. (Judges 20:28, 35-37, 46-48).
25. The Hebrews regret the slaughter of the Benjamites, and slaughter
the people of Jabesh Gilead because they did not participate: they
kill all the men, women, children, saving only 400 virgins for
surviving Benjamites (Judges 21:3-12). King James Version dares not
call it rape.
26. Not enough brides for Benjamites; Hebrews arrange for rape of the
Hebrew daughters of Shiloh (Judges 21:20-23).
27. LORD God AGAIN orders extermination of Amaleks. The incident to be
avenged is the Amalek attack on Moses' expedition, more than 250 years
earlier (1 Samuel 15:1-8, 32-33); "Now go and smite Amalek, and
utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both
man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass."
28. Though King Saul does LORD God's vengeance against the Amaleks, he
fails in the details. He has kept King Agag alive. LORD God is angry
and the prophet Samuel is angry. Samuel goes to the battlefield,
summons King Agag, and personally cuts him to pieces. (1 Samuel
15:9-11, 32-33)
29. David slaughters Philistines and mutilates the corpses, taking
foreskins as trophies (1 Samuel 18:25-27). This is love, not war —
David wanted the king's daughter in marriage.
30. David exterminates the Geshurites, the Gezrites, Amaleks,
Jerahmeelites, and Kenites (1 Samuel 27:8-11).
31. Characterized as a seasonal sport ("at the time that kings go out
to battle"), King David and Joab conquer the cities of the Ammon. King
David dismembers the captives with blunt instruments (1 Chronicles
20:1-3) "And he … cut them with saws, and with harrows of iron, and
with axes."
32. LORD God is displeased with the dynasty of Baasha. By way of the
Prophet Jehu, LORD God sends word that Baasha's dynasty will be
forcefully terminated, and his family will be eaten by dogs and birds.
(1 Kings 16:1-4)
33. King Asa, descendent of Baasha, is now king. While he is getting
drunk one day, Zimri, a leading military officer, attacks and kills
him. Zimri makes himself king and kills all the males in the family of
Baasha, doing the work of LORD God. His reign lasts seven days. (1
Kings 16:8-15)
34. The evil King Ahab is dead but the evil Queen Jezebel yet lives.
The new king, anointed of LORD God, arranges to have Queen Jezebel
thrown from a window, whereupon he drives his chariot over her. He
leaves the body there to be eaten by dogs. Only her skull, her feet,
and the palms of her hands remain. (2 Kings 9:30-37)
35. King Jehu requests the elders of Jezreel to kill all 70 of Ahab's
sons. It is done, and their heads are transported in baskets and left
outside the city gates. Then Jehu kills all that remain of the house
of Ahab in Jezreel: all Ahab's men, his kinfolk, and his priests,
until none remain. (2 Kings 10:1-11)
36. King Jehu encounters the late King Ahaziah's brothers on the road.
He captures them and kills them all in a pit because they are related
to the dead king. (2 Kings 10:12-14)
37. King Jehu goes to Samaria and kills all the allies of Ahab and his
dynasty, according to LORD God's instructions. Then he makes a public
announcement that he will be serving the idol Baal, and calls to him
all Baal's prophets and priests. Meanwhile, Jehu plans treachery, for
when all the servants of Baal are gathered, Jehu has them killed. (2
Kings 10:15-25)
38. Menahem butchers Tiphsahites and rips open stomachs of pregnant
women (2 Kings 15:14-17) Menahem is bad, but LORD God allows him to
rule for ten years without opening up the earth and swallowing him.
Ripping open the bellies of pregnant woman is not as offensive to LORD
God as murmuring against Moses. See Numbers 16:1-3, 23-35.
39. Mordecai, a prominent Jew in the capital city of the Persian
Empire, creates a bad situation by publicly insulting and challenging
Haman, Grand Vizier (Esther 3). Mordecai and his cousin, Queen Esther
secretly Jewish, win out in palace politics. As a result, the Jews of
the Empire slaughter more than 75,000 powerless Persians in a two-day
bloodbath (Esther 8). See The Essential Purim.
40. LORD God's prophecy: The people of Jerusalem will be massacred:
(Ezekiel 9:4-11) "Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little
children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark;
and begin at my sanctuary."

THE CLEAR JUXTAPOSITION OF THE TRUE AND THE FALSE

New Testament

Mark 3:1 And he entered again into the synagogue; and there was a man
there which had a withered hand.
3:2 And they watched him, whether he would heal him on the sabbath
day; that they might accuse him.
3:3 And he saith unto the man which had the withered hand, Stand
forth.
3:4 And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath
days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? But they held their
peace.
3:5 And when he had looked round about on them with anger, being
grieved for the hardness of their hearts, he saith unto the man,
Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it out: and his hand was
restored whole as the other.

Old Testament

Numbers 15:32 And while the children of Israel were in the
wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks upon the sabbath day.
33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses
and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
34 And they put him in ward, because it had not been declared what
should be done to him.
35 And the LORD said unto Moses: ‘The man shall surely be put to
death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the
camp.’
36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned
him with stones, and he died, as the LORD commanded Moses.

Exodus 31:14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore, for it is holy unto
you; every one that profaneth it shall surely be put to death; for
whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from
among his people.

THE GOD (ALEPH LAMED) THAT WAS BEFORE THE LORD (JHVH)

Genesis Chapter One
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 Now the
earth was unformed and void, and darkness was upon the face of the
deep; and the spirit of God hovered over the face of the waters. 3 And
God said: 'Let there be light.' And there was light. 4 And God saw the
light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. And
there was evening and there was morning, one day.

6 And God said: 'Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters,
and let it divide the waters from the waters.' 7 And God made the
firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from
the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so. 8 And God
called the firmament Heaven. And there was evening and there was
morning, a second day.

9 And God said: 'Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together
unto one place, and let the dry land appear.' And it was so. 10 And
God called the dry land Earth, and the gathering together of the
waters called He Seas; and God saw that it was good. 11 And God said:
'Let the earth put forth grass, herb yielding seed, and fruit-tree
bearing fruit after its kind, wherein is the seed thereof, upon the
earth.' And it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, herb
yielding seed after its kind, and tree bearing fruit, wherein is the
seed thereof, after its kind; and God saw that it was good. 13 And
there was evening and there was morning, a third day.

14 And God said: 'Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven
to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for
seasons, and for days and years; 15 and let them be for lights in the
firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth.' And it was so.
16 And God made the two great lights: the greater light to rule the
day, and the lesser light to rule the night; and the stars. 17 And God
set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18 and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the
light from the darkness; and God saw that it was good. 19 And there
was evening and there was morning, a fourth day.

20 And God said: 'Let the waters swarm with swarms of living
creatures, and let fowl fly above the earth in the open firmament of
heaven.' 21 And God created the great sea-monsters, and every living
creature that creepeth, wherewith the waters swarmed, after its kind,
and every winged fowl after its kind; and God saw that it was good. 22
And God blessed them, saying: 'Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the
waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.' 23 And there
was evening and there was morning, a fifth day.

24 And God said: 'Let the earth bring forth the living creature after
its kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after its
kind.' And it was so. 25 And God made the beast of the earth after its
kind, and the cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth
upon the ground after its kind; and God saw that it was good. 26 And
God said: 'Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let
them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the
air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every
creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.' 27 And God created man
in His own image, in the image of God created He him; male and female
created He them. 28 And God blessed them; and God said unto them: 'Be
fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it; and
have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air,
and over every living thing that creepeth upon the earth.' 29 And God
said: 'Behold, I have given you every herb yielding seed, which is
upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in which is the fruit
of a tree yielding see
--to you it shall be for food; 30 and to every
beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing
that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is a living soul, [I have
given] every green herb for food.' And it was so. 31 And God saw every
thing that He had made, and, behold, it was very good. And there was
evening and there was morning, the sixth day.
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