On Apr 2, 1:28Â am, turtoni
fastmail.net> wrote:> On Apr 1, 6:37Â pm, "tooly"
bellsouth.net> wrote:
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>>> "Sir Frederick"
fuzzysys.com> wrote in message>
>>news:v6vvu3p7gbd3h4cn1fo9lv5pm9402ta1c0@
4ax.com...
>
>>> On Sun, 30 Mar 2008 13:28:56 -0700 (PDT), turtoni
fastmail.net>
>>> wrote:>
>>>>On Mar 30, 12:08 pm, ZerkonX
X.net> wrote:>>>>> On Sat, 29 Mar 2008 16:31:21 -0700, turtoni wrote:
>>>>>> There is no doubt that it is the brain that makes our species unique
>>>>>> among other animals. The versatility of our brain enabled early humans
>>>>>> to manipulate the environment to a far greater extent than any other
>>>>>> species; the invention of tools and weapons and the development of
>>>>>> science and technology made H. sapiens the most successful (and
>>>>>> destructive) species in the history of life on Earth.
>
>>>>> I can not see any basis for this statement other than "rah-rah-yea us".
>>>>> Humans have spent an infinitesimal amount of time on earth compared to
>>>>> other species, sharks for example. I believe in evolutionary terms
>>>>> success is measured in longevity not who leaves the biggest footprint.
>
>>>>> "Manipulation of the environment" has always suggested that humans
>>>>> 'ruled' or 'conquered' their environment. If plain manipulation of
>>>>> environment is the gage here then ants and maybe worms among others
>>>>> might
>>>>> be the super species. Bacteria and viruses are also contenders.
>
>>>>> The only reason I question or challenge this human uber alles mentality
>>>>> is that it has led to an unhealthy arrogance. A sort of Titanic
>>>>> mentality
>>>>> maybe not even 'sort of' either.
>
>>>>Agreed. Although i don't think that was the authors intention as we
>>>>can tell by reading other passages.
>
>>>>> Bottom line, the environment 'manipulated' itself into enabling the
>>>>> human
>>>>> and everything else into existence as a part of the environment not as
>>>>> some separate and independent agent and nothing can survive without
>>>>> 'manipulating' it's environment. So much so, the question is what is
>>>>> really manipulating what?
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>>>>May as well be nothing as far as we are concerned.
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>>>>Would be nice to be able to throw tooly a bone.
>>> Just because we understand the situation better,
>>> doesn't mean we must stop doing what works :
>>> breeding (with class) and practicing meaning giving
>>> stories (one of my favorite stories is good coffee, a chemical
>>> story, but it works).
>
>>> The situation is not going to get any better, the putative
>>> gods are not going to let us know what is really going on.
>>> So we continue doing what works, even tooly.
>
>>> My sympathies for all.
>
>>> Regards,
>>> Martin
>
>> Hey Sir...
>> Did you read my own lean about the effects of the religious experience on
>> our nervous pathways, as I've thought on it [hmm...in turtoni's 'capacity to
>> understand God' thread I think]? Â I see real advantages taking place
>> [possibly anyway]. Â Bottom line thinking that I've arrived at is the simple
>> idea of 'experience' as the fundamental aspiration of life. Â This seems
>> overly simplistic of course, but offers a logical springboard to then
>> rationalize that once existing, life seeks 'better' experience. Â This
>> provides step one in reasoning a 'vector' relationship of life to time. Â It
>> is important to keep all other variables equal when discerning the nature of
>> just one variable. Â Environments change of course, making the dynamics
>> complex. Â But as a rule, life seeks betterment. Â Am I wrong?
>
>> It's quite the opposite, LOL, as I've been scrambling with every small
>> intellectual ability I have to try and 'throw you guys a bone', ha. Â Even
>> the reverse psychology about death hasn't worked, hehe. Â I play the fool and
>> try and conclude the 'nothingness' argument of neural pathways and such, and
>> then take it a step further to show the dead end this is....ah, but to no
>> avail. Â I know what I'm up against, as both your minds are processed with
>> todays leadning edge perceptions as promoted in our highest institutions.
>> KNOWLEDGE leads to where we are today. Â I once again accentuate a single
>> idea, 'STATE'. Â I don't think it matters how this particular STATE I argue
>> for is reached [via religious experience, tall tale stories of old, belief,
>> faith, neural staples of one sort or another, LSD...hehe]...once this
>> changed STATE of consciousness is 'experienced', Â a new understanding takes
>> place...even more influential than KNOWLEDGE. Â That's heady stuff I realize.
>> And the EXPERIENCE of life becomes far and away, a BETTER thing.
>
>> But it's nothing new. Â Yes, we've been practicing the dogmatic stories that
>> have played with this 'STATE' for centuries. Â "God" I think is Arthur C.
>> Clarke's monolith in real time [I hated he passed on; he was more than just
>> a writer, but his visions were quite amazing actually]. Â But our evolution
>> is incomplete. Â We still need to reach toward the monolith to continue
>> stimulating these pathways to develop our empathetic reach. Â In time, I
>> believe we will no longer feel alone, but exist with a connectivity not just
>> to ourselves, but all things. Â Ultimately, all we have is each other...but
>> that will be quite enough [for all meaning and purpose]. Â Anyway, please
>> 'gnaw' on that bone for awhile, LOL. Â It's a good one with some meat on it I
>> think.
so we're machines?
"Mon key see and mon key do
Ma king ba bies, ea ting food
Smel ly things, pu bic hair
Words of lo ve, in the air
Sparks fly, shoo ting out
Ma king sure that eve ry thing is wor king
I cant turn you down
We are pro grammed hap py lit tle chil dren
Mat ter o ver mind
We can not re sis so I wont fight it
Love is a ma chine
Love is a ma chine without a dri ver
The facts of life
The facts of life
A masterpiece
Biology
Smokey water
Air conditioned
Boys n girls
And automation
Chromosomes
Designer jeans
Chimpanzees
And human beings
Machines of love
Machines of love
Strong in body, strong in mind
A love machine with the facts of life
The facts of life
The facts of life
So much sex n violence
Must be a bad design
Were stupid to be fighting
Every night
The monsters we create
They welcome us aboard
The best in advertising
From coast to coast
The girls and boys combine
Like monkeys in the zoo
The clouds have silver linings
Looks pretty good
People fall in love like in fairy tales
Im not sure I like, what they can do
Im afraid that God has no master plan
He only takes -- what he can use
Factory life, ice cream & pie
Factory life
Someday well live on venus
And men will walk on mars
But we will still be monkeys
Down deep inside
If chimpanzees are smart
Then we will close our eyes
And let our instincts guide us
Oh oh oh oh no"
