> Jerry Kraus wrote:

>> On Sep 9, 1:40 pm, doug xx.com> wrote:

>

>>>Jerry Kraus wrote:

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>>>>On Sep 9, 12:48 pm, doug xx.com> wrote:

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>>>>>Jerry Kraus wrote:

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>>>>>>On Sep 8, 1:28 pm, doug xx.com> wrote:

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>>>>>>>Jerry Kraus wrote:

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>>>>>>>>On Sep 8, 12:28 pm, doug xx.com> wrote:

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>>>>>>>>>Jerry Kraus wrote:

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>>>>>>>>>>On Sep 8, 10:59 am, "tadams...@yahoo.com" yahoo.com> wrote:

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>>>>>>>>>>>On Sep 2, 10:49 am, Jerry Kraus yahoo.com> wrote:

>

>>>>>>>>>>>>Modern scientists tend to misinterpret the recent rehabilitation of
>>>>>>>>>>>>Galileo Galilei as indicating that Church admits that they were wrong
>>>>>>>>>>>>to prosecute him, at the time.  This is most certainly not the the
>>>>>>>>>>>>case.  All the Church is saying is that Galileo was not a bad person,
>>>>>>>>>>>>and that his writings, even his satires of the Church,  no longer pose
>>>>>>>>>>>>any social threat.

>

>>>>>>>>>>>>http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0801299.htm

>

>>>>>>>>>>>>...
>>>>>>>>>>>>Jesuit Father Sabino Maffeo, the Vatican Observatory's vice director
>>>>>>>>>>>>for administration, told CNS that Galileo ran into trouble with the
>>>>>>>>>>>>Holy Office because he did not have proof for his claims.

>

>>>>>>>>>>>>"Not having proof ... (the Holy Office) was forced to hold on to the
>>>>>>>>>>>>centuries-old concept" that saw Earth as the center of the cosmos, he
>>>>>>>>>>>>said.

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>>>>>>>>>>>>If he had had proof, which did not come for another 100 years with
>>>>>>>>>>>>discoveries made by Isaac Newton, Galileo's fate could have been much
>>>>>>>>>>>>different, Father Maffeo said. He added that Italian Cardinal Robert
>>>>>>>>>>>>Bellarmine, who was part of the 17th-century Vatican commission that
>>>>>>>>>>>>admonished Galileo not to hold or defend the Copernican theory, had
>>>>>>>>>>>>told Galileo "the day in which you bring a demonstration then we will
>>>>>>>>>>>>have to look at how sacred Scripture gets interpreted differently,
>>>>>>>>>>>>but
>>>>>>>>>>>>as long as there is no proof, we will continue to interpret
>>>>>>>>>>>>(Scripture) literally as we have all along."

>

>>>>>>>>>>>>...

>

>>>>>>>>>>>>What would have happened if the Church had not prosecuted or censured
>>>>>>>>>>>>Galileo?  Would Newton have had the same incentive to develop his
>>>>>>>>>>>>comprehensive Copernican explanation of the Universe?  Would society
>>>>>>>>>>>>have been destabilized by lack of faith in the Church and conventional
>>>>>>>>>>>>social order?

>

>>>>>>>>>>>>What implications does this example have for modern Church criticisms
>>>>>>>>>>>>of scientific theories such as Evolution and the Big Bang?  Does the
>>>>>>>>>>>>Church, or other social institutions have some role in integating
>>>>>>>>>>>>scientific concepts into the broader social perspective?  Was Galileo
>>>>>>>>>>>>a kind of idiot-savant, not understanding how to fully develop his own
>>>>>>>>>>>>ideas?  Is this a common problem among scientists in general, who are
>>>>>>>>>>>>not holistic thinkers, however skilled they may be in their own
>>>>>>>>>>>>speciality?

>

>>>>>>>>>>>"Though I thought they [Galileo's views on the solar system] were
>>>>>>>>>>>based on very certain and evident proofs, I would not wish, for
>>>>>>>>>>>anything in the world, to maintain them against the authority of the
>>>>>>>>>>>Church." - Rene Descartes.

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>>>>>>>>>>>Descartes fled to the Protestant part of Europe after Galileo's trial.- Hide quoted text -

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>>>>>>>>>>>- Show quoted text -

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>>>>>>>>>>Nevertheless, the scientific method is a Christian concept, and was
>>>>>>>>>>nurtured systematically by the Church.  The notion that scientists
>>>>>>>>>>should always go unchallenged is not necessarily a constructive one.
>>>>>>>>>>The one extreme is Church suppression.  The other is academic self-
>>>>>>>>>>indulgence and incompetence.  There may be a happy medium that should
>>>>>>>>>>be striven for.

>

>>>>>>>>>You apparently have no idea how science works.  The point of science is
>>>>>>>>>to look for the truth which is, of course, testable. Scientists test
>>>>>>>>>things that other scientists do. They challenge each other all the time
>>>>>>>>>both for professional and ego reasons.

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>>>>>>>>>Openness gets you truth.  The church is not interested in that.- Hide quoted text -

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>>>>>>>>>- Show quoted text -

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>>>>>>>>I know exactly how science works, Doug.  Professional bureaucrats play
>>>>>>>>political games to drum anyone out of the field who threatens their
>>>>>>>>own position.

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>>>>>First of all, scientists are not bureaucrats. You are showing your
>>>>>ignorance.

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>>>>>  Scientists lie systematically to advance their own

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>>>>>>>>agenda at the expense of their opponents,

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>>>>>You are thinking about religion. Science is testable.  Lies are not.
>>>>>You need to study something about science.

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>>>>> and don't give a damn about

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>>>>>>>>anything except their own power.   Professional science is exclusively
>>>>>>>>concerned with power.  Truth is a matter of total indifference to the
>>>>>>>>professional scientific community.

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>>>>>No, you are confusing this with religion.  See above.

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>>>>>>>You have no clue about science. You have hate and bias.  Learn something
>>>>>>>and you will be embarrassed. I have been in this business for over 40
>>>>>>>years and you are wrong.- Hide quoted text -

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>>>>>>>- Show quoted text -

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>>>>>>You're a crook, Doug.  Admit it.

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>>>>>This is humorous but before you go out to read your first book about
>>>>>science, first go buy a dictionary (you know the one with all the
>>>>>words but not much of a plot) and look up crook. You clearly do not
>>>>>understand the word.  In science, you are not allowed to randomly
>>>>>redefine words the way you do in philosophy.

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>>>>>I do not know whether to pity you for your ignorance or to be
>>>>>disgusted with your reveling in it.- Hide quoted text -

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>>>>>- Show quoted text -

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>>>>Doug, you're a moron.

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>>>When you get your dictionary, look up the word "moron". You may be
>>>surprised to see what it means.

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>>>>As, indeed, are quite a few "scientists".  By glorifying stupidity,
>>>>like yours,

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>>>Science glorifies facts and truth.

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>>>and calling questioning it "ignorance", you help to

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>>>>prevent progress, and maintain the status quo.  

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>>>Yes we have stopped the internet, stopped all the industrial
>>>development, stopped all medical research etc. What world do
>>>you actually live in?

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>>>Resources are witheld> from useful work, in preference to "bells and whistles" technology of

>

>>>>the type Corporate Giants like Microsoft favor.   Don't change
>>>>anything, that might undermine the current power base.  We don't want
>>>>progress, we want stability.  Just like the mediaeval Catholic
>>>>Church.  Actually, they might have been more progressive than the
>>>>current military-industrial-scientific bureaucracy that you favor!

>

>>>I finally realized that your issue is jealousy.  You feel that someone
>>>else got something you deserved.  This is a very childish behaviour
>>>and I cannot help you with your problems.  It must be a very sad
>>>life for you though.

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>> I see I'm dealing with a member of the military-industrial-scientific
>> bureaucracy here.  Anyone who doesn't want to kill and steal for a
>> living is "jealous" of those who do.   Yeah, right.

>
> My goodness, your jealousy is really getting to you. You certainly live
> in a sad world.  Why are you looking to make yourself so unhappy?  This
> does explain why you hate Galileo and were happy to have him get
> persecuted because of the stupidity of the church.
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