> On Jan 22, 7:44 pm, "Sean"
blah.com.au> wrote:>>> On Jan 22, 5:25 pm, kevirwin
comcast.net> wrote:>>>> On Jan 22, 2:56 pm, ta
nc.rr.com> wrote:>>
>>>>> On Jan 22, 2:37 pm, Day Brown
hughes.net> wrote:>>
>>>>>> Where did the money go? Or- did it never exist in the first place?
>>
>>>>> Out of the hands of those that don't know what they're doing and
>>>>> into
>>>>> the hands of those that do.-
>>
>>>> I believe "ta" has correctly identified the answer to Q#1...
>>
>>>> I personally know nothing of the inner workings of the market. It
>>>> makes less sense to me than most of the discussions in this forum..
>>>> However, a former manager of mine at work was heavily involved in the
>>>> stock market and **did** know what he was doing. He explained to me
>>>> how once, how sharp investors made money while the market was falling,
>>>> by anticipating the fall. They could make just as much money in a
>>>> falling market as in a rising market..All they needed was people like
>>>> me, casually investing funds into these money market accounts for
>>>> these sharks to take sooner or later...
>>
>>>> K e v
>>
>>> It's actually *easier* to make money in down markets, especially ones
>>> that go down in a straight line like this one has. Of course, no one
>>> in the mainstream ever teaches these methods, and the "financial
>>> advisors" don't make any money if you're taking $$ out of your mutual
>>> funds (no commissions). They don't know jack squat anyway. That's why
>>> it's better to learn how to do things on your own than rely on
>>> "professionals" to do it for you, in this case.
>>
>>> Those making money in a down market aren't "sharks" -- they're just
>>> more sophisticated and better informed. Unfortunately, the way the
>>> game is played, the average Joe is at a distinct disadvantage, so
>>> we're left to educate ourselves (shows like Cramer's "Mad Money"
>>> help). So we can cry victim and drown in our tears or learn the rules
>>> of the game and use them to your advantage. It's not easy, but then
>>> nothing worthwhile ever is.
>>
>>> p.s. no one can "take" your money from a money market account, which
>>> is nothing more than a cash account.
>>
>> The Stock markets, and the Money markets were not created for the
>> advantage
>> of "investors".
>>
>> They were created for the pure advantage of those individuals in groups
>> that
>> "sold" the idea as being a good idea for everyone, when they were never
>> intended that way, nor do they work that way not even when "investors"
>> appear to be on a good thing.
>>
>> Those that are at a pure advantage no matter what are the Bankers, the
>> Asset
>> Rich Landed Establishment, the Governments who reap net income from
>> Markets
>> whether going up or down, Business Con Men, and Salespeople on
>> Commission.
>
> You're forgetting one other group -- those that have put in the hard
> work to understand how the stock market works and have succeeded
> accordingly.
>
No TA, I was not forgetting them. What they do is totally NON-productive and
a drain on society. They could be doing something more constructive, and
productive. IOW just because you are smart and have invested YOUR time into
taking advantage of others, doesn't qualify for "hard work" in my value
book.
Criminals work just as hard as stock market players. You're no more up the
scale of human endeavour than a card counter at the casino who gets away
with it.
>> The Stock markets and Money markets are institutionalised Gambling
>> Casinos.
>
> To some people they are -- and they get what they deserve. Others
> actually take it seriously, and their results are reflected in that.
>
They are what they are. professional gamblers work hard too. Great for them
... but they are NOT productive workers or businessman by any means. They,
like stock market players PRODUCE AND CREATE NOTHING OF VALUE .. ever!
>> They are non-productive entities that add no REAL value to any economy or
>> the people who participate in them.
>
> Really? They certainly add real value to those that succeed at it.
So do criminals ....... and the Ken Lay's of Enron etc etc.
So yes really, stock markets players are non-productive entities that add no
REAL value to any economy or the people who participate in them.
When they make $$$$ it is at the expense of others ... it doesn't create
real economic growth, nor does those profits a player makes add a dime to
the economy that wasn't there before.
IOW, they rob peter to pay paul, and when Paul is you, well everyone likes
that hey?
But it is still NON-creative, and NON-productive. The economy gains nothing,
the society gains nothing, the world gains nothing.
Alternatively show me a farmer who puts a seed in the ground and harvests
cotton and I'll show you productivity and a win for all. Show me a worker at
a car factory screwing in bolts for a new car, and I'll show you creativity
and productivity at work.
That's real, that's valuable. Stock market players are just big ego's who
care nothing for anything but themselves, hopefully being a smarter gambler
and beating the other guy. N'est pa?
> Sounds like you are not among them, so maybe you're not the best
> judge.
>
Not a lion tamer either, doesn't mean I can't understand what is involved,
and make a choice if I want to do it or not or why.
I'm not a murderer either, and can work out it doesn't add much value to the
world in being one. Follow me now? It's about values TA.
>> Any system that makes people money, gives them power for doing absolutely
>> productive NO WORK, except trying to beat the "odds", is a destructive
>> element in society and for those that engage in it.
>
> I'll be sure to pass that on to Warren Buffet, who just gave away
> BILLIONS to charity.
>
Where did he get it from? And how many people lost their life's savings,
their marriage or their health to help Mr Buffett make a fortune on the
stock market?
Does that mean that someone like Bill Gates is also the same .. well no,
because he actually worked and created something new. But the dull and
unintelligent who know nothing about computer software, or Intel's microchip
that threw in some spare cash they had or they borrowed from the bank and
scrored BIG TIME when stock prices went thru the roof ... what exactly did
they do of value?
And when the DOT COM bubble burst and millions lost their small fortunes
they thought they had made, or the hard earned cash they saved from working
in the car factory that went down the drain with the stock prices ... what
about them?
Maybe the Buffetts of the world could hire a Private Eye and track them down
as he undoubtledly made a lot of money off the misery of other Americans who
weren't so "smart".
Well good for him, and good for you if you think such a thing is good for
your nation and the world.
>> It is no better than a Poker Machine where the system is setup to be
>> profitable for only two players - the House, and the Government via Taxes
>> and Regulatory Fees.
>
> Just because you are not successful at it (or more likely, have never
> even attempted success at it), that doesn't mean that others aren't.
> Wait, let me guess -- your cousin's second uncle's daughter's wife
> lost all her money in the stock market, so it must be rigged?
>
You are the one saying it is "rigged", I didn't. Why are you so interested
in what motivates me to say what I say, rather than debate the specific
points I raise?
Do you think I really care that the stock market is there or not? Do you
think I must be a "loser/victim" just because I have an opinion at variance
to your's?
You obviously do not understand what it is that I am saying here. Too close
for comfort is it? ;-)
>> The gains that some individuals "appear" to make, does not in any way
>> compensate for the damage done to other individuals and the ongoing
>> negative
>> effects on society in general.
>
> Nobody's twisting anybody's arm -- cash out your 401K and stuff it
> under your mattress if you choose.
>
I choose what I do, so do you, and so do those who go into the market
without wisdom or the skills to play the game. I don;t feel sorry for any of
the players mentioned me included. I sleep well. I don't care who loses
their money, that's THEIR problem, not mine.
That doesn't mean I have to shut down my head or my heart and not express my
own opinions about an accepted practice on planet earth. I really don't care
if I am the only one who feels the way I do, and cares to paint a different
picture of what the stock market is REALLY all about. Not my fault if people
don't or refuse to it the way it IS.
If you have a problem with that, go jump, or log off and go make a hot
investment. I hope you win!!! ;-)
>> The Stock market is a House of Cards in other words, it is a NO-Thing,
>> nothing but an "illusion of substance" the way they are designed and
>> operated.
>
> The stock market is many things to many people. It depends on your
> mindset. You're free to choose.
>
Illusions are just like that ..... it all depends on your mind set. I like
the way I make my mind work. It works for me. ;-)
>> Even those that "win" at it, end up losing something more valuable
>> than money.
>
> I'll pass that on to Buffett as well, that loser.
>
Feel free, i doubt he'd understand it or be interested in it though. Most
men like to see themselves as being able to leave a physical legacy in the
world and be remembered in history. He's no different than other famous
"winners". The question is "what did they have to do to be such a winner
that you are in awe of him?" At what cost TA .... do you know what harm was
caused on his way to being the great winner?
>> But it's their free choice, and so I agree that there are no
>> "victims". End of story. imho of course.
>
> You might consider that the market is also a way for technological
> innovators and other purveyors of useful products to fund their
> ventures, which often benefit humanity in big ways. Take the New
> World, for example.
Yes that's obvious ... but one does NOT need a stock market to do such
things. It is an unnecessary requirement that has been promoted by vested
interests to create the illusion that such an entity is crucial for new
innovations and investments. basically it is a LIE, propagated for the their
own self-interest and in no way designed to help the poor old struggling
creative endeavour.
No one needed a stock market for the wheel to go into production in the dark
ages. Nothing has changed in worldly fundamentals ... just the illusions are
far more complex and hidden from the unaware. Savvy?
Happy investing.
