> Okay: Touche
>
> I think you win the de-bait between ye & me at least.
>
> But I'll hereby defend the USA, because I'm a semi-world traveler, and
> was never happier as when we got back home.
>
Home is where the heart is. No one's home is perfect, but that is not what
is important.
An Afghanistan political refugee in australia for many years returned home
and became a regional governor or something, and was recently killed in
suicide bombing there. I doubt he ever considered the differences in health
systems or costs between the two countries, or thought they were that
important in the big scheme of *his* life and purpose for breathing.
Everyone has to play the cards they are delt. Your parents placed you in
America, what you do with that hand is up to you.
> I was in Europe--Paris, Naples, and London--a couple of years ago for a
> couple of long weeks.
>
> I was not favorably impressed by much of what I saw.
>
> The prices over there do seem too high.
>
Easy to see variations that are overt. But there is more to "life" and
community than just the going prices of commodities. Maybe every citizen
also had access to total health care, a hospital bed and cheaper
medications, or community based govt funded assistance for the elderly in
thier homes so they didn;t have to die of starvation or ill health because
they coouldn;t afford the tablets they needed. Who knows?
Don't believe what you read in the papers, the tv, or the internet. Most
people are quite capable of making their own choices, running their own
lives and their own country.
> I feel fortunate 7/24 that my grandparents exited from elsewhere
> (Warsaw, Odessa).
>
> Your constructive criticisms, however, are welcome by me.
>
> That rioting in Paris is nothing to be proud about b-t-w.
>
> Many/most of the people here are seemingly fed-up with being the
> "world's policeman," perhaps as much as the World is seemingly fed-up
> with us today.
>
Maybe the world is doing just fine all by itself?
Policeman tend to expect bad things about to happen, and every odd unusual
behaviour is a sign of a potential criminal. Self-fullfilling paranoid pov,
iow.
Here's a thought. America revolves around the earth just like everyone else
does. The world doesn't revolve around America.
Just because America, as a nation thinks a, b & c is wonderful, doesn't mean
the rest of the world actually gives a shit or thinks it should matter in
their life or should be expected by Americans to live their life the exact
same way.
McDonald's is a hamburger joint, not an ideological lifestyle choice. They
are also crap hamburgers and anyone with a backyard bbq could do better. [
And I speak as someone who worked in McDonald's management and know from
expereince what I am saying here.]
Company provided health care for automotive workers is an irrelevancy to
anyone not in the industry. It's a choice of regulated system created and
applicable in america only. No one except americans care less how you run
your health care system. It's as relevant to the world as the World Series
is.
I only mention this because after years on usenet, no matter what the forum
or subject issue, these places are full to the brim of americans that seem
unable to discuss anything except american politics and social policy issues
as if it is the only prism thru which to view the world.
What's my philosophical point? I'm not arguing with you Robert, or telling
you what to think or do or say. It's a self-replicating cultural pattern of
behaviour, be it here or on cable tv and world affairs in general.
[ my apologies in advance for the generalization but ] I just think that
overall America is so full of it's own [false] self-importance and it's
cultural need to be "better than" everyone else in everything that you do
[ and argue that point to the death with anyone and everyone ], with an
unrelenting need "to prove" to the rest of the world that you are the
greatest thing god ever created on the planet that you're all turning into a
bunch of self-obsessed oddballs ..... and have lost sight of the fact that
what makes the world a wonderful and beautiful place is it's diversity, it's
differences, it's variations in cultures and lifestyles, political &
economic systems, religions, ideologies, communities, and landscapes.
There's a lot more that's good about life on planet Earth than the USA and
the so called "problems" you have to deal with it. You ain't that special or
more important than anyone else on the planet, really, you are not.
Other people's choices and self-interests are just as important as your own,
and do not have to always be seen through the prism of a threat or an attack
against your own ideology and right to self-determination. [ "you" being a
general term , not robert in particular ]
Like as one example, it's got absolutely nothing to do with America how Cuba
or Venezuala run their own nations or what economic system they choose to
use, what they do, or who their friends are. By all means extend that to
Iraq, Iran, nth Korea, and every other person on the planet.
"All men are created equal..." even non-american citizens. And 99.9%% of the
rest of the world do not give a crap how Americans live your lives either,
including health care. ;-)
> The election tomorrow may offer a clue as to the U.S. future, though
> (imho) it will probably be another ambiguous message because nobody
> could say that our representative democracy
> is as nice as a picturesque Swiss chocolate, clock, and toy shop.
>
so true!
Like the Iraqis under Suddam, you get the government & politics you are
willing to accept and therefore deserve.
Happy days, I hope the poker machine election mechanism runs well and
someone hits the jackpot. LOL
> Santimvah wrote:
>>>Q & A
>>>
>>> Robt: What is the reality here?
>>>
>>> Cohen: I introduced a typical CHRISTIAN SCIENCE MONITOR article slanted
>>> toward single-payer.
>>>
>>> Robt: So?
>>>
>>> Cohen: Well, that's what I do: I'll give my opinion, and try to not be
>>> overly dogmatic, especially since they wanted to throw me out of here
>>> for not being relevant to philosophy.
>>>
>>> Robt: And?
>>>
>>> Cohen: I'm being kicked in the balls about Mercedes vs Cadillac.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Since when is someone else expressing thier opinion whilst not being
>> overly
>> dogmatic about it, reprocesssed into " YOU BEING KICKED IN THE BALLS "
>> .....
>> how exactly do you do that?
>>
>>> Robt: Just go thru the anti-American
>>> rabbit-punches, and come back with uppercuts to bore 'em to futility.
>>>
>>
>> Aah, so what you are saying is that it;s ok for you to dump on,
>> criticise,
>> complain about, whine on, insult, ridicule, bitch, point out, laugh at,
>> shake your head or fist at, all things american ...... but when someone
>> else
>> does it, as in POINTS OUT THE OBVIOUS FLAW in POV's here and there ....
>> THEY
>> are the ones being ANTI-American.
>>
>> OK, so now I know the rules of your game, I'll purposely and consciously
>> ignore them.
>>
>> The "topic" is USA Healthcare .... YOU brought it up and said it is not
>> about to change. My general off the head response comment is "it's as
>> poor
>> quality as your automotive industry, much like your Intelligence
>> Services,
>> much like your running of Iraq, and much like your Politics - and much
>> like
>> New Orleans - poorly planned, badly managed, unprofessional, and
>> incompetent -"
>>
>> MY Philosophical point about all that was/is ... and I thought it would
>> have
>> been obvious seeing I already said it, it ain't going to change if the
>> 300
>> million PEOPLE don't change.
>>
>> But, you can only change yourself, and when you do you will see things
>> very
>> differently than you do now. Then America will change instantly before
>> your
>> eyes and you'll accept it for what it is, not what you dream/believe it
>> should be.
>>
>> Philosophical enough?
>>
>>> RobtCohen thus now responds:
>>>
>>> It's common wis-dumb here in the USA that our
>>> United Auto Workers' wages, health, lay-off, and pension benefits are
>>> tres cher especially in relation to Mexico & Brazil of course.
>>>
>>> With Sweden, Japan & Germany the health and other benefits
>>> diffrentiations are not so clearcut/apparent.
>>>
>>> Yes, I realize that Honda v Nissan v Toyota are competitive stockholder
>>> held companies, but do not Japan, Germany & Sweden also have socialized
>>> medicine?
>>>
>>> Japan makes some good quality vehicles & parts:
>>>
>>> CONSUMER REPORTS magazine doesn't make their objective surveys out of
>>> fiction.
>>>
>>> I now have a Nissan p/up long-bed 2004 (or 2003?)
>>> that was hopefully assembled in Smyrna, Tennessee.
>>>
>>> South Korea's Hyundai/Kia are very good buys: I've owned several
>>> Hyundais directly from Korea and maybe also from assembly en Canada.
>>>
>>> Daewoo went bankrupt and shutdown in USA & Canada.
>>>
>>> GM bought-it-up elsewhere, and apparently the Daewoo division of GM
>>> has many Woo assembly plants all over the World.
>>>
>>> We had owned a Daewoo '98 Nubira, but aren't bragging of its quality.
>>>
>>> Hyundai is now producing out of Greeneille (?)
>>> near Montgomery, Alabama.
>>>
>>> But, nevermind: China willl eventually be eating everybody's
>>> lunch--apparently both in the upscale-market of Mercedes-Lexus &
>>> downscale-market of Elantra-Neon-Fiesta
>>>
>>> Hey, ain't that thar Ford Fiesta made in South Korea or Mexico or
>>> where?
>>>
>>> B-t-w: Germany alarmingly
>>> has a relatively high unemployment rate--what is it currently?
>>>
>>> Their Mercedes, Porsche & BMW cars are indeed considered better quality
>>> than U.S. stuff.
>>>
>>> My wife luvs the VW convertibles: We had a couple. in the 1980s and
>>> 1990s.
>>>
>>> Mercedes of course now owns Chrysler, and some beautiful BMWs are
>>> assembled in the Greenville, South Carolina, area.
>>>
>>> Sweden's car corporations are now owned by ...Ford & GM.
>>>
>>> Venezuela, by-the-way, assembles cars and I read an article that the
>>> people are investing/speculating in CARS of all things in Venezuela.
>>>
>>> This proves that their now allegedly more
>>> socialized economy sort of semi-
>>> works...especially when the oil market is high priced.
>>>
>>> Gasolene is reported as currently 11 U.S. cents a gallon in Venezuela.
>>>
>>> More to come if you haven't expired from being bored.
>>>
>>> Santimvah wrote:
>>>>> So, approximately "twenty percent" of the overall expenses will
>>>>> continue to go for paperwork, forms, claims, bureaucracy--the usual
>>>>> disgusting mickey mousean nonsense.
>>>>>
>>>>> As automobile plants within the USA are shutdown, amongst the major
>>>>> causes is reportedly the (in comparison disproportionate) medical
>>>>> burden on each new GM & Ford assembled in USA car.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Have you considered the possibility that americans design and make
>>>> lousy
>>>> cars, aren't that good at managing companies and change, and that it's
>>>> nothing to do with health care?
>>>>
>>>> Well, it's a thought. Do you know of any US car maker that can produce
>>>> anything of the same quality of a Ferarri, Lexus, or a Mercedes for
>>>> the
>>>> price?
>>>>
>>>> Workers in Germany, Italy, Korea, and Japan aren't paid any less than
>>>> US
>>>> workers overall you know.
>>>>
>>>> The main trouble with Americans, imho, is you read your own news and
>>>> PR
>>>> reports and forget that there's a real world out there beyond. You're
>>>> just
>>>> being jerked around with bs and cheap ideological excuses.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I see the morning news that Chrysler is having a domestic car sales
>>>>> problem too.
>>>>>
>>>>> Hey, I know "national socialized medicine" is very flawed phenomenon
>>>>> too:
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Is it? Iraq's was top notch before gulf war I, and Nth Vietnam's was
>>>> world
>>>> class and free to all in the 60's untill they had the shit bombed out
>>>> of
>>>> them and 2+ million killed. The UK system isn't perfect but I'd rather
>>>> end
>>>> up there than the US if I was in a trauma situation.
>>>>
>>>> In Thailand, you can go to the drug store and buy basic cheap
>>>> medications
>>>> like anti-biotics across the counter without getting prior approval
>>>> from
>>>> your doctor or HMO and paying thru the nose for the so called
>>>> "priveldge".
>>>> It's called "personal responsibility" not "socialized enforcement" to
>>>> a
>>>> set
>>>> of rules made by others.
>>>>
>>>> Anyway, how come the US runs a "national socialized education system"
>>>> with
>>>> free school transportation to boot .......... if socialized systems
>>>> are
>>>> so
>>>> anathema?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I'm hopefully no political-economic demagogue: This is supposed to
>>>>> be
>>>>> about philosophy.
>>>>>
>>>>> To me, the USA looks to be in scary decline, and I blame Democrats
>>>>> &
>>>>> Republicans for it, though imho the Republicans have lately been
>>>>> decidedly incompetent.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Maybe, if it's so bad, it's the entire 300 million Americans in
>>>> general
>>>> that are to blame. Hasn't anyone ever heard of shared responsibility?
>>>>
>>>> You know about the American Dream Robert? Well, it IS a dream!!!
>>>>
>>>
>
