> Robert Cohen wrote:

>> re: Holocaust
>>
>> Yes, moral relativism.
>>
>> I duly must concede your very harsh point, because I have not been
>> persuaded otherwise.
>>
>> I wish it weren't so.
>>
>> Here is my interpretation of reality:
>>
>> The nazis & their adherents (apparently) think they're perfectly
>> rational to rid the world of the Jews--Final Solution..
>>
>> It became seemingly their leaders' bottomline reason-to-be, as the
>> Wansee research seems to indicate.
>>
>> They've not given-up as one can reasonably intuit from this
>> anonymous/semi-anonymous medium we're utilizing to communicate here.
>>
>> They've expanded into the Middle East more than ever before.
>>
>> The posters at alt.philosophy seemingly generally can not
>> accept/acknowledge that awful "rational" argument because they're
>> apparently ashamed/ermbarrassed, though little to me is more evident.
>>
>> It goes back at least as far as the internal revolt against Judaism, as
>> John Dominic Crosson brilliantly, succinctly explains in WHO KILLED
>> JESUS?
>>
>> Try to read at least its 5-page preface.
>>
>> Subsequently there are historical dynamics (dark ages, middle ages,
>> feudalism, reformation, nationalism, industrialism etal)
>>
>> Hannah Arendt's lover-mentor, the then ultra-modern philosopher
>> Heidigger, is reputedly a proud nazi when it was
>> popular/normative/acceptable within his overall society/culture.
>>
>> Sorry about that, Hannah.
>>

>
> Ok, I see, well obviously I don't agree with you. That you don't see
> that what they did was objectively immoral, is because you have
> forsaken God. You didn't have to accept the point, because as an
> agnostic, presumably you could have viewed it from two perspectives,
> and taken the moral view to take whichever perspective gave the most
> moral outcome from your own agnostic perspective.
>
> Anyway, I was just wondered if you could morally justify Uri Avnery's
> statement, and you can't. You just tell me about how you hold no
> objective moral perspective, and that morals are relative, and even
> fail to offer an even relativistic moral justification, such as the
> ends justify the means type of reasoning used before by people who wish
> to excuse their evil actions.
>
> As for historical reasons for why people act they do, I'm not really
> interested in the excuses.
>
> Anyway interesting talking to you, but I think there is a big
> difference between yourself, and a jew that believes in God. From my
> perspective, they are more fundamentally similar to a non-jew that
> believes in God, as on the most important thing they are fundamentally
> united. I'll read whatever reply you give, if indeed you do give one,
> but I won't be continuing the conversation.
>
> If you are interested though, I am corresponding on a thread called
> "atheists are stupid", and if you would like to enter that debate
> regarding whether evolution is a plausible explanation for our
> conscious experience, then I will happily reply to you, and take you
> through the reasoning why it never was, and therefore you should never
> have lost your faith (as evolution being responsible for our
> consciousness would be the only line of reasoning available to the
> materialistic perspective). Whether you do or don't is up to you (you
> have free will after all).
>

>> someone3 wrote:

>>> Robert Cohen wrote:

>>>> Okay, fair question.
>>>>
>>>> You asked, and you're getting some of
>>>> the 9 yards of what I perceive as reality.
>>>>
>>>> I am a "Jewish agnostic year 2006/year 5700+"
>>>>
>>>> I am a product of the dynamics of evolution & history.
>>>>
>>>> I am enculturated in Conservative Judaism &
>>>> U.S. Americanism--southeasternism born 'n raised amongst Jews,
>>>> Baptists & Methodists.
>>>>
>>>> I am secular,
>>>> university degreed in liberal arts and education.
>>>>
>>>> I do not know if there is a super-natural, a deity, another dimension.
>>>>
>>>> I hope there is a "metaphysical realm," doesn't everybody?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I minored in "philosophy," while I enjoy reading novels much more than
>>>> dry, difficult brain-taxing philosophy
>>>>
>>>> Morality is subjective to me.
>>>>
>>>> "Genocide" should be
>>>> an absolute, tho did we Americans not mass-kill indians, and we
>>>> Americans generally
>>>> think of it as not as immoral as ...uh...Turks killing Armenians, nazis
>>>> murdering Jews
>>>>
>>>> As to
>>>> whether Jews oughtabe "more moral"
>>>>
>>>> Of course we should always try.
>>>>
>>>> But "morality"
>>>> or "goodness" means different things to different people
>>>>
>>>> Take the very word/term "good"
>>>>
>>>> Where does the term
>>>> "good" derive from?
>>>>

>>>>>From "gut," apparently a

>>>> Germanic term for good and/or god.
>>>>
>>>> So, "morality" is much about "culture."
>>>>
>>>> It does not derive in a sterile vacuum.
>>>>
>>>> I'm a subjectivist and a relativist.
>>>>
>>>> There are degrees of goodness.
>>>>
>>>> For instance:
>>>>
>>>> Some massive killing ain't as bad as other mass murder.
>>>>
>>>> Relativism.
>>>>
>>>>

>>>
>>> Ah I see, so from your perspective (relativism) nazis murdering jews is
>>> really no different from any other mass murder of one group against
>>> another, it is just a matter of relative perspective. From a nazi
>>> perspective given your relativist perspective it is not so immoral? It
>>> would just be a case of what the societies opinion was at the time.
>>>
>>> Though again you haven't really answered whether you thought Uri
>>> Avnery's statement:
>>> "A higher moral standard is required from us than from other peoples.
>>> And rightly so."
>>>
>>> had any moral justification to it.
>>>
>>> Supposing a nazi was to say that the mass murder of jews was part of
>>> the 'final solution' and that the ends justified the means. Would you
>>> think that from a relativist perspective, that the nazi had justified
>>> morally their perspective, and therefore it could from a relativist
>>> perspective be thought of as moral to a nazi?
>>>
>>> So slavery was not immoral when people thought it moral, as there is no
>>> objective morality from your perspective.
>>>
>>> Btw, I believe in God, so I don't hold with this relativist
>>> perspective. There is a commandment that we should not kill. Morality
>>> to me is based on a loving, selfless God. If you don't know whether God
>>> exists or not, why do you right off the concept of an objective
>>> morality, especially given that the relativist morality (that you
>>> support) allowed for the holocaust?
>>>

>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> someone3 wrote:

>>>>> Robert Cohen wrote:

>>>>>> yeah
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm agnostic
>>>>>>

>>>>>
>>>>> So are you when you said:
>>>>>
>>>>> "A Jew is a mortal human being, and thus cannot be any more or any less
>>>>> moral than a non-Jew."
>>>>>
>>>>> Are you implying when that there is no morality, and thus one being
>>>>> cannot be more or less moral than another, so a Jew cannot therefore be
>>>>> any more or less moral than a non-Jew? As you maybe previously implied
>>>>> when you said "moral schmoral".
>>>>>

>>>>>>
>>>>>> someone3 wrote:

>>>>>>> Robert Cohen wrote:

>>>>>>>> A Jew is a mortal human being, and thus cannot be any more or any less
>>>>>>>> moral
>>>>>>>> than a non-Jew.
>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When you say 'mortal' does that imply that you believe that there is no
>>>>>>> heaven and that experience doesn't continue beyond the experience of
>>>>>>> the physical universe that we are currently experiencing?
>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> someone3 wrote:

>>>>>>>>> Robert Cohen wrote:

>>>>>>>>>> You want from me a formulaic absolutist categorization.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hmmm
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I suppose you're not being unreasonable, though neither am I.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The better part of understanding and adapting to the being Jewish
>>>>>>>>>> predicament is to sort of go along and think in terms of maximalizing
>>>>>>>>>> the higher ideals in all of Western civilization--both humanism &
>>>>>>>>>> religious.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Pick 'n choose Judaism.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Cafeteria Catholicism.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Existential Protestantism.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Ditto Muslimism.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> We are the evolved resultants of hundreds/thousands of years of
>>>>>>>>>> conflicts.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Somehow we maintain/survive.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Let's continue to adapt.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Let's not get hung-up on shibboleths & sacraments.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I dunno anything for damne sure.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm just asking a simple question.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ------------
>>>>>>>>> Given the Uri Avnery's statement:
>>>>>>>>> "A higher moral standard is required from us than from other peoples.
>>>>>>>>> And rightly so."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Do you think there are any moral grounds justifying that his assertion
>>>>>>>>> was correct?
>>>>>>>>> ------------
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If you can't think of any moral grounds to justify his statement, then
>>>>>>>>> admit that you can't. If you can, then state them. What is the problem?

>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> someone3 wrote:

>>>>>>>>>>> Robert Cohen wrote:

>>>>>>>>>>>> Okay, I'll try this:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> moral schmoral
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Moral is also a term of culture.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ought Jews be of a higher moral standard than non-Jews?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> A Jews morality reach should exceed... .
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> EVERY body/group/nation/sub-culture oughtabe of a higher moral
>>>>>>>>>>>> standard.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> You certainly reply in a way that makes the conversation harder to
>>>>>>>>>>> follow, it might make things more readable if you answer underneath the
>>>>>>>>>>> question asked, which for clarity was:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --------
>>>>>>>>>>> Given the Uri Avnery's statement:
>>>>>>>>>>> "A higher moral standard is required from us than from other peoples.
>>>>>>>>>>> And rightly so."
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Do you think there are any moral grounds justifying that his assertion
>>>>>>>>>>> was correct?
>>>>>>>>>>> --------
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> You can answer using the word 'moral' as a term of culture, or as
>>>>>>>>>>> morality under God, up to you. Obviously you could specify in which
>>>>>>>>>>> context you are using it.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> In which concext did you mean:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "A Jews morality reach should exceed... ."
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> If you meant it in purely 'cultural' context, the word "reach" would
>>>>>>>>>>> seem an interesting addition. Would you simply be suggesting that their
>>>>>>>>>>> influence should be extensive (even in matters not concerning God).
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "EVERY body/group/nation/sub-culture oughtabe of a higher moral
>>>>>>>>>>> standard."
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> While I am not in disagreement with this, it does not address the
>>>>>>>>>>> question.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Why don't you simply answer the question whether Uri Avnery's statement
>>>>>>>>>>> was correct or incorrect in your opinion, with perhaps a 'moral'
>>>>>>>>>>> justification if you are in support of it?
>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>> someone3 wrote:

>>>>>>>>>>>>> Robert Cohen wrote:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My feeling of being Jewish surely does cause me to think about
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> morality, religion, philosophy, and what is reality 24/7.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's a "burden," but it's what I perceive my religious-oriented
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ancestors have done for thousands of years (thoughts of G-d and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> behaving according to Torah doctrine)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I do not change my name; but I do try to exist as a "Jewish secular
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> humanist," rather than as an ethno-centric, tribalistic type, though
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm surely some combination of all the above.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've read that FIFTY PERCENT or more of the Israelis are not strictly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> orthodox.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've read that many are agnostics & atheists to varying degrees.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The orthodox are said to consist of only twenty-five percent.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, from this perception, I may be within the norm of modern
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Israelis, and this also causes me to explain & justify what I think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reality is for Jews and zionists.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As we've been attacked & accused of nearly everything--literally of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> devilry--then I have educated myself to try to read & understand what
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the helle reality is & oughtabe.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's a "burden" for an average mind, but as JC (Jimmy Carter) says,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> life ain't necessarily fair..
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> So you asked me:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Now , what is the question, please?"
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and I replied:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Given the Uri Avnery's statement:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "A higher moral standard is required from us than from other peoples.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> And rightly so."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you think there are any moral grounds justifying that his assertion
>>>>>>>>>>>>> was correct?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I looked at your reply, but failed to see your answer. Am I wrong, if
>>>>>>>>>>>>> not, perhaps you could answer, what is after all a simple question.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> someone3 wrote:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Robert Cohen wrote:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Me, the pswaydo-intellectrual, hereaby ecrits:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm bar-mitzvahed, but if G-d exists, then s(he) would know that I'm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> agnostic, and so why fool any deity or person, because a just deity
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would not be as egotistical & jealous as out clergy & theology seem to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> often portray G-d.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We are the "Jewboys," and they're the "goyims."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Some of them--a very significant amount--are believers in that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rebellious/radical
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Rabbi Joshua that we did not accept as the Messiah.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The non-Jews
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have very complicated feelings & ideas about us as we seem to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hold about them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's phenomena that are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not totally rational nor ethically righteous, but c'est la vie.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am thus herein
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> trying to "de-construct" our relationship; but history & culture are a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> little stronger (more influential)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than the enlightenment of a southeastern state university's liberal
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> arts student.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Now , what is the question, please?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Given you lack of beliefs one way or the other (do you lean any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> direction btw, or is it something you think you will simply find out or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not as the case maybe, when you are no longer experiencing the physical
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> world), how about I word the question as follows:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Given the Uri Avnery's statement:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "A higher moral standard is required from us than from other peoples.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And rightly so."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you think there are any moral grounds justifying that his assertion
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was correct?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> someone3 wrote:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Robert Cohen wrote:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'll try to subjectively interpret his point, and I hereaby apologize
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if the last 3 sentences are too troubling, which they indeed are.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, "Western Civilization" culture-history has much to do with the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ancient Hebrews of course.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So today's Jews--whether religious types or secular-humanists types (or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> contradictory combos thereof), do feel ...uh...something complex.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Certainly not every "Jew" feels exactly the same as another.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We're known to feud & disagree as much as we;re known for other
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stereotype behaviors.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I too hold & perceive his reality, and hope that most non-Jews may
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> perceive these complicated intra & inter dynamics of ..ordinary
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> culture.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you're a Jew, then are you implying that you have no
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> such...uh..."ethno-paranoia?"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The "goyim" (seem to me to) expect Jews to be devils/angels or some
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> combination thereof.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And Jews & non-Jews have adapted/mal-adapted to ...uh...sort of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mutual....uh...expectations--self-fulfilling as they well may be.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So do you think there is any morality in the perspective stated that:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "A higher moral standard is required from us than from other peoples.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And rightly so."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Are you saying that as a Jew, Uri Avnery, had his moral perspective
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> altered by the gentiles , in such a way that it would no longer be in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> line with God's perspective, assuming you accept that we are all God's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> children, and as such are all under the same obligations to act
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> morally, or do you disagree with the final point that I am making?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Btw, I doubt if a poll were taken amongst gentiles that believe in God,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that the majority recognise any difference in the obligation to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> moral.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> someone3 wrote:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Robert Cohen wrote:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I like it enough to link it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/AVN401A.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Note: The term "Anti-Semitism" is constantly utilized, and if one is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> confused/curious about its derivation, then WIKIPEDIA has an apparently
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> accurate explanation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm using "anti-Jewishism" in the subject title as a way around the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lexicographical & semantical (and semitical)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> confusions of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> antisemitism/anti-semitism, which I cannot remember at this moment
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anyhow.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The one with the hyphen has a different denotation than the other one,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and ...uh.....so I try to use the "anti-Jewishism," which may or may
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not suit an orthodoxical Harbracean/grammarian--you know who you are.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fortunately, a self-edited n.g. posting allows fools to hang our semi-
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> illiterate, neo-glistic, idiosyncratic selves, which is fun for me
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> though not necessarily for the reader.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I didn't understand the point:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "A higher moral standard is required from us than from other peoples.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And rightly so."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why would this be? Just to clarify, I am not suggesting that the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> highest moral standards should not be aimed for, I was just wondering
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about why there should be a distinction? Are we not all God's children?