>On Apr 28, 11:44 am, gfnaj...@nospam.net wrote:

>> Son, stop your right wign kook nonsense. There was no thread from Iraq.
>> bush and his cabal lied to make a war there. They thought it would easy
>> and good for the coming 2004 election.

>No of course not. They all love us over there don't they. I'm sure
>all we need to do is lay down our weapons and open our arms and they will
>greet us as brothers. (of course they like to kill their brothers but
>that is neither here nor there).

>>
>> Learn to deal with reality, not the right wing replacement for the god
>> awful commies that you characters wanted to fight forever.
>>
>> In t12g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, on
>> 04/28/2008
>> at 08:19 AM, Michae...@gmail.com said:
>>

>>>On Apr 26, 6:20 am, "Dr. James West, Ph.D." nobull.com> wrote: >
>>>Michae...@gmail.com wrote:

>>>>> On Apr 24, 9:30 pm, "Dr. James West, Ph.D." nobull.com> wrote:

>>

>>>>>>Michae...@gmail.com wrote:

>>

>>>>>>>On Apr 23, 6:59 pm, "Dr. James West, Ph.D." nobull.com> wrote:

>>

>>>>>>>>Michae...@gmail.com wrote:

>>

>>>>>>>>>While I appreciate Immortalist dissection of the argument (something
>>>>>>>>>that he is very adept at doing). I find it hard to read such an
>>>>>>>>>article without primarily seeing it political/social implication.

>>

>>>>>>>>>It seems obvious (at least to me) that Laurence is judging the
>>>>>>>>>mentioned participants (soldiers) by the social connotation with which
>>>>>>>>>he associates the events they participated it.

>>

>>>>>>>>>Putting aside my own view of the value that these participants efforts
>>>>>>>>>afforded our country, I would say the concept of hero is based more
>>>>>>>>>upon the action performed in view of the risk involved and the reward
>>>>>>>>>that was promised.

>>

>>>>>>>>>I.E. Someone who risks their life doing that which they (and society
>>>>>>>>>as a whole) thinks is right with little regard to reward that it
>>>>>>>>>provides is a hero.

>>

>>>>>>>>>By this definition every soldier who served honorably when faced with
>>>>>>>>>the enemy (or the possibility of the enemy) is a hero.

>>

>>>>>>>>Yep. By your definition every soldier in every army throughout history
>>>>>>>>is a hero. American soldiers, Nazi soldiers, Huns, Vikings...all equally heros.

>>

>>>>>>>Not every soldier. Every soldier who performed the legal directives
>>>>>>>given to him by his leaders in an honorable way.

>>

>>>>>>This is where we differ. Performing an immoral act, regardless of how "legal"
>>>>>>it is, is not ever honorable and not ever heroic.

>>

>>>>> I assume you are also providing your own definition of what morality
>>>>> is?

>>

>>>> Yes, just as we all do...every one of us. As you will now demonstrate....

>>

>>>>> Just because an action is distasteful does not mean it is immoral.

>>

>>>> See...your own personal definition of morality.

>>

>>>> And who in the fuck ever said distasteful and immoral were
>>>> equivalent...they are not...you are either a moron or attempting to obfuscate.

>>

>>>> I claim that killing innocent Iraqi people is immoral...murder.
>>>> I claim that the *continued* killing of innocent people is immoral...murder.

>>

>>>> I like dogs, but if a dog threatened my children (or was

>>

>>>>> perceived to threaten my children), I would remove it as a threat by
>>>>> any means necessary. The level and imminence of the threat would be a
>>>>> factor in my actions.

>>

>>>>> I perceive that your argument is based around that idea that the US
>>>>> has no moral authority to act in its own defense in other parts of the
>>>>> world unless we are reacting to actions already committed by others.

>>

>>>> Son, you perceive incorrectly. The U.S. may defend itself. The U.S. may
>>>> not make up fictitious and hysterical reasons to invade other countries..

>>

>>>What does someone have to do before you will acknowledge that they are a
>>>threat to you? US has the moral authority and duty to eradicate
>>>terrorist organizations that are bent on doing us harm. Since these
>>>cowards hide in the shadows we have a duty to drag them out of the
>>>shadows (or burn them in their caves). The Bush doctrine has clearly
>>>stated that if you harbor terrorist we will treat you like a terrorist.
>>>While certainly not all of the people who have died are guilty of
>>>terrorism, I wonder how you propose destroying the enemy without be
>>>willing to use deadly force against them? There will be innocent
>>>casualties, but that is the cost of war. Or would you rather that we
>>>fight this war on American shores so that the innocent casualties were
>>>American?

>>

>>>>> I disagree. I would much rather have the US be proactive in
>>>>> preventing threats then waiting to punish those who committed them.

>>

>>>>> Especially since I and those I love could very well be dead in your
>>>>> scenario.

>>

>>>> Son, you're a fuckin rightwing warmongering moron.

>>

>>>> ;-)

>>

>>>>>>The U.S. military has done a good job of brainwashing that morality is
>>>>>>irrelevant and only "legal" is relevant.

>>

>>>>>>A legacy, "lesson learned", from the Vietnam era.

>>

>>>>>>>>>>Heroes or Dupes?
>>>>>>>>>> by Laurence M. Vance

>>

>>>>>>>>>>Americans love their war heroes. It doesn t matter where the war was fought,
>>>>>>>>>>why it was fought, how it was fought, or what the war cost. Every battlefield
>>>>>>>>>>is holy; every cause is just; every soldier is a potential hero. But what is
>>>>>>>>>>it that turns an ordinary soldier into a war hero? Since it obviously depends
>>>>>>>>>>on the criteria employed, is it possible that American war heroes are not
>>>>>>>>>>heroes at all? Could it be that, rather than being heroes, they are instead
>>>>>>>>>>dupes?

>>

>>>>>>>>>>Democrats who loathe John McCain because he is a Republican and Republicans
>>>>>>>>>>who consider him to be a lukewarm conservative are united in their belief
>>>>>>>>>>that, whatever his politics, McCain is a genuine war hero because he spent
>>>>>>>>>>five years as a prisoner of the North Vietnamese. But one does not have to be
>>>>>>>>>>a prisoner of war to be considered a war hero. The Department of Defense
>>>>>>>>>>maintains a website that highlights "the military men and women who have gone
>>>>>>>>>>above and beyond the call of duty in the Global War on Terror." Every soldier
>>>>>>>>>>who died fighting in the debacles in Iraq and Afghanistan, otherwise known as
>>>>>>>>>>Operation Iraqi Freedom and Operation Enduring Freedom, is also considered to
>>>>>>>>>>be a war hero.

>>

>>>>>>>>>>After McCain graduated from the Naval Academy in 1958, he became a naval
>>>>>>>>>>aviator. During the Vietnam War he rained down death and destruction on the
>>>>>>>>>>people of Vietnam during twenty-three bombing missions. After being shot down,
>>>>>>>>>>he was imprisoned instead of receiving the death sentence his bombs delivered
>>>>>>>>>>to the Vietnamese. So why is he considered a war hero? If he got what he
>>>>>>>>>>deserved, there would be 58,257 names on the Vietnam Veterans Memorial in
>>>>>>>>>>Washington D.C. instead of 58,256. Pilots like McCain who drop napalm from the
>>>>>>>>>>safety of their cockpit are lauded as heroes by the government, the media, and
>>>>>>>>>>Americans ignorant enough or gullible enough to swallow the myth that there
>>>>>>>>>>can be heroism in the performance of evil. McCain was even well received by
>>>>>>>>>>the Vietnamese government in 2000 when he traveled to Vietnam in pursuit of a
>>>>>>>>>>bilateral trade agreement.

>>

>>>>>>>>>>Begun in September of 2006, the DOD "Heroes Archive" contains the names of
>>>>>>>>>>116 U.S. soldiers who performed some heroic deed fighting in Iraq or
>>>>>>>>>>Afghanistan. Of the four soldiers currently featured, two were awarded the
>>>>>>>>>>Bronze Star, one was awarded the Purple Heart and the Distinguished Service
>>>>>>>>>>Cross, and the fourth was awarded the Bronze Star, the NATO Medal, the Afghan
>>>>>>>>>>Campaign Medal, and the Outstanding Service Medal. Now, unlike General
>>>>>>>>>>Petraeus, at least these soldiers earned their metals during real combat. Yet,
>>>>>>>>>>the fact remains, as Catholic Eastern Rite priest Charles McCarthy has
>>>>>>>>>>recently stated, "Murder decorated with a ribbon is still murder."

>>

>>>>>>>>>>Both IraqWarHeroes.org and AfghanistanWarheroes.org are "dedicated to our
>>>>>>>>>>deceased Heroes that have served in Iraq & Afghanistan." The list of "deceased
>>>>>>>>>>Heroes" contains the names of 4,591 U.S. soldiers who have died in Iraq and
>>>>>>>>>>Afghanistan. I don t know where these sites are getting their information
>>>>>>>>>>from. The "Casualties in Iraq" page at Antiwar.com shows a total of 4,528
>>>>>>>>>>deaths. But regardless of the exact number, the point is that every soldier
>>>>>>>>>>who died fighting in the war on terror is said to be a hero. It doesn t matter
>>>>>>>>>>if they were killed by enemy fire, roadside bombs, friendly fire, disease,
>>>>>>>>>>accident, or carelessness they are all heroes. But since the war in Iraq is
>>>>>>>>>>senseless, immoral, and criminal does it really matter how these soldiers
>>>>>>>>>>died? Again, I refer the reader to Father McCarthy:

>>

>>>>>>>>>> Authentic heroism is freely taking a grave risk in order to try to do good.

>>

>>>>>>>>>> Evil does not become a scintilla less evil because a person put his or her
>>>>>>>>>> life in jeopardy to do it and is subsequently designated a hero.

>>

>>>>>>>>>>This means that whatever we call U.S. soldiers fighting in Iraq, we should not
>>>>>>>>>>call them heroes.

>>

>>>>>>>>>>Some of these "heroes" are mercenaries. The "large Armies of foreign
>>>>>>>>>>Mercenaries to complete the works of death, desolation, and tyranny" that our
>>>>>>>>>>Founding Fathers protested against in the Declaration of Independence are now
>>>>>>>>>>fighting for the United States in Iraq. Since 9/11, the United States has
>>>>>>>>>>granted citizenship to over 32,000 foreign soldiers. All it takes now is one
>>>>>>>>>>year of service in the military to be granted citizenship.

>>

>>>>>>>>>>Many of these "heroes" are killers for hire. For them, the enlistment bonuses,
>>>>>>>>>>the tuition assistance, the student loan repayment plans, the assignment
>>>>>>>>>>incentive pay, the career training, the thirty days of vacation each year, the
>>>>>>>>>>free medical and dental care, and the generous retirement benefits are enough

>>
>> ...
>>
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