>On Apr 26, 6:20 am, "Dr. James West, Ph.D." nobull.com> wrote: >
>Michae...@gmail.com wrote:

>>> On Apr 24, 9:30 pm, "Dr. James West, Ph.D." nobull.com> wrote:

>>

>>>>Michae...@gmail.com wrote:

>>

>>>>>On Apr 23, 6:59 pm, "Dr. James West, Ph.D." nobull.com> wrote:

>>

>>>>>>Michae...@gmail.com wrote:

>>

>>>>>>>While I appreciate Immortalist dissection of the argument (something
>>>>>>>that he is very adept at doing). I find it hard to read such an
>>>>>>>article without primarily seeing it political/social implication.

>>

>>>>>>>It seems obvious (at least to me) that Laurence is judging the
>>>>>>>mentioned participants (soldiers) by the social connotation with which
>>>>>>>he associates the events they participated it.

>>

>>>>>>>Putting aside my own view of the value that these participants efforts
>>>>>>>afforded our country, I would say the concept of hero is based more
>>>>>>>upon the action performed in view of the risk involved and the reward
>>>>>>>that was promised.

>>

>>>>>>>I.E. Someone who risks their life doing that which they (and society
>>>>>>>as a whole) thinks is right with little regard to reward that it
>>>>>>>provides is a hero.

>>

>>>>>>>By this definition every soldier who served honorably when faced with
>>>>>>>the enemy (or the possibility of the enemy) is a hero.

>>

>>>>>>Yep. By your definition every soldier in every army throughout history
>>>>>>is a hero. American soldiers, Nazi soldiers, Huns, Vikings...all equally heros.

>>

>>>>>Not every soldier. Every soldier who performed the legal directives
>>>>>given to him by his leaders in an honorable way.

>>

>>>>This is where we differ. Performing an immoral act, regardless of how "legal"
>>>>it is, is not ever honorable and not ever heroic.

>>

>>> I assume you are also providing your own definition of what morality
>>> is?

>>
>> Yes, just as we all do...every one of us. As you will now demonstrate...
>>

>>> Just because an action is distasteful does not mean it is immoral.

>>
>> See...your own personal definition of morality.
>>
>> And who in the fuck ever said distasteful and immoral were
>> equivalent...they are not...you are either a moron or attempting to obfuscate.
>>
>> I claim that killing innocent Iraqi people is immoral...murder.
>> I claim that the *continued* killing of innocent people is immoral...murder.
>>
>> I like dogs, but if a dog threatened my children (or was
>>

>>> perceived to threaten my children), I would remove it as a threat by
>>> any means necessary. The level and imminence of the threat would be a
>>> factor in my actions.

>>

>>> I perceive that your argument is based around that idea that the US
>>> has no moral authority to act in its own defense in other parts of the
>>> world unless we are reacting to actions already committed by others.

>>
>> Son, you perceive incorrectly. The U.S. may defend itself. The U.S. may
>> not make up fictitious and hysterical reasons to invade other countries.
>>

>What does someone have to do before you will acknowledge that they are a
>threat to you? US has the moral authority and duty to eradicate
>terrorist organizations that are bent on doing us harm. Since these
>cowards hide in the shadows we have a duty to drag them out of the
>shadows (or burn them in their caves). The Bush doctrine has clearly
>stated that if you harbor terrorist we will treat you like a terrorist.
>While certainly not all of the people who have died are guilty of
>terrorism, I wonder how you propose destroying the enemy without be
>willing to use deadly force against them? There will be innocent
>casualties, but that is the cost of war. Or would you rather that we
>fight this war on American shores so that the innocent casualties were
>American?

>>
>>

>>> I disagree. I would much rather have the US be proactive in
>>> preventing threats then waiting to punish those who committed them.

>>

>>> Especially since I and those I love could very well be dead in your
>>> scenario.

>>
>> Son, you're a fuckin rightwing warmongering moron.
>>
>> ;-)
>>
>>
>>

>>>>The U.S. military has done a good job of brainwashing that morality is
>>>>irrelevant and only "legal" is relevant.

>>

>>>>A legacy, "lesson learned", from the Vietnam era.

>>

>>>>>>>>Heroes or Dupes?
>>>>>>>> by Laurence M. Vance

>>

>>>>>>>>Americans love their war heroes. It doesn t matter where the war was fought,
>>>>>>>>why it was fought, how it was fought, or what the war cost. Every battlefield
>>>>>>>>is holy; every cause is just; every soldier is a potential hero. But what is
>>>>>>>>it that turns an ordinary soldier into a war hero? Since it obviously depends
>>>>>>>>on the criteria employed, is it possible that American war heroes are not
>>>>>>>>heroes at all? Could it be that, rather than being heroes, they are instead
>>>>>>>>dupes?

>>

>>>>>>>>Democrats who loathe John McCain because he is a Republican and Republicans
>>>>>>>>who consider him to be a lukewarm conservative are united in their belief
>>>>>>>>that, whatever his politics, McCain is a genuine war hero because he spent
>>>>>>>>five years as a prisoner of the North Vietnamese. But one does not have to be
>>>>>>>>a prisoner of war to be considered a war hero. The Department of Defense
>>>>>>>>maintains a website that highlights "the military men and women who have gone
>>>>>>>>above and beyond the call of duty in the Global War on Terror." Every soldier
>>>>>>>>who died fighting in the debacles in Iraq and Afghanistan, otherwise known as
>>>>>>>>Operation Iraqi Freedom and Operation Enduring Freedom, is also considered to
>>>>>>>>be a war hero.

>>

>>>>>>>>After McCain graduated from the Naval Academy in 1958, he became a naval
>>>>>>>>aviator. During the Vietnam War he rained down death and destruction on the
>>>>>>>>people of Vietnam during twenty-three bombing missions. After being shot down,
>>>>>>>>he was imprisoned instead of receiving the death sentence his bombs delivered
>>>>>>>>to the Vietnamese. So why is he considered a war hero? If he got what he
>>>>>>>>deserved, there would be 58,257 names on the Vietnam Veterans Memorial in
>>>>>>>>Washington D.C. instead of 58,256. Pilots like McCain who drop napalm from the
>>>>>>>>safety of their cockpit are lauded as heroes by the government, the media, and
>>>>>>>>Americans ignorant enough or gullible enough to swallow the myth that there
>>>>>>>>can be heroism in the performance of evil. McCain was even well received by
>>>>>>>>the Vietnamese government in 2000 when he traveled to Vietnam in pursuit of a
>>>>>>>>bilateral trade agreement.

>>

>>>>>>>>Begun in September of 2006, the DOD "Heroes Archive" contains the names of
>>>>>>>>116 U.S. soldiers who performed some heroic deed fighting in Iraq or
>>>>>>>>Afghanistan. Of the four soldiers currently featured, two were awarded the
>>>>>>>>Bronze Star, one was awarded the Purple Heart and the Distinguished Service
>>>>>>>>Cross, and the fourth was awarded the Bronze Star, the NATO Medal, the Afghan
>>>>>>>>Campaign Medal, and the Outstanding Service Medal. Now, unlike General
>>>>>>>>Petraeus, at least these soldiers earned their metals during real combat. Yet,
>>>>>>>>the fact remains, as Catholic Eastern Rite priest Charles McCarthy has
>>>>>>>>recently stated, "Murder decorated with a ribbon is still murder."

>>

>>>>>>>>Both IraqWarHeroes.org and AfghanistanWarheroes.org are "dedicated to our
>>>>>>>>deceased Heroes that have served in Iraq & Afghanistan." The list of "deceased
>>>>>>>>Heroes" contains the names of 4,591 U.S. soldiers who have died in Iraq and
>>>>>>>>Afghanistan. I don t know where these sites are getting their information
>>>>>>>>from. The "Casualties in Iraq" page at Antiwar.com shows a total of 4,528
>>>>>>>>deaths. But regardless of the exact number, the point is that every soldier
>>>>>>>>who died fighting in the war on terror is said to be a hero. It doesn t matter
>>>>>>>>if they were killed by enemy fire, roadside bombs, friendly fire, disease,
>>>>>>>>accident, or carelessness they are all heroes. But since the war in Iraq is
>>>>>>>>senseless, immoral, and criminal does it really matter how these soldiers
>>>>>>>>died? Again, I refer the reader to Father McCarthy:

>>

>>>>>>>> Authentic heroism is freely taking a grave risk in order to try to do good.

>>

>>>>>>>> Evil does not become a scintilla less evil because a person put his or her
>>>>>>>> life in jeopardy to do it and is subsequently designated a hero.

>>

>>>>>>>>This means that whatever we call U.S. soldiers fighting in Iraq, we should not
>>>>>>>>call them heroes.

>>

>>>>>>>>Some of these "heroes" are mercenaries. The "large Armies of foreign
>>>>>>>>Mercenaries to complete the works of death, desolation, and tyranny" that our
>>>>>>>>Founding Fathers protested against in the Declaration of Independence are now
>>>>>>>>fighting for the United States in Iraq. Since 9/11, the United States has
>>>>>>>>granted citizenship to over 32,000 foreign soldiers. All it takes now is one
>>>>>>>>year of service in the military to be granted citizenship.

>>

>>>>>>>>Many of these "heroes" are killers for hire. For them, the enlistment bonuses,
>>>>>>>>the tuition assistance, the student loan repayment plans, the assignment
>>>>>>>>incentive pay, the career training, the thirty days of vacation each year, the
>>>>>>>>free medical and dental care, and the generous retirement benefits are enough
>>>>>>>>to erase any concerns about the morality of traveling thousands of miles away

>>

>>>>>>>>from U.S. soil to kill people they have never met or seen, and that posed no

>>

>>>>>>>>threat to America or Americans.

>>

>>>>>>>>Most of these "heroes," however, are dupes. They think they are fighting for
>>>>>>>>our freedoms when instead they are helping to destroy our freedoms. They think
>>>>>>>>they are retaliating for 9/11 when instead they are paving the way for another
>>>>>>>>terrorist attack. They think they are preventing terrorism when instead they
>>>>>>>>are making terrorists. They think they went to Iraq to fight al-Qaeda when
>>>>>>>>instead al-Qaeda came to Iraq because of them. They think they are protecting
>>>>>>>>Israel when instead they are contributing to increased hatred of Israel. They
>>>>>>>>think that our cause is just when instead it violates every just war principle
>>>>>>>>ever formulated. They think they are fighting injustice when instead they are
>>>>>>>>committing a crime against the Iraqi people. They think they are defending the
>>>>>>>>United States when instead they are helping to destroy it.

>>

>>>>>>>>One of the saddest cases of a duped hero is that of Marine Staff Sergeant
>>>>>>>>Marcus Golczynski. He died fighting in Iraq on March 27 of last year while
>>>>>>>>assigned to the Marine Forces Reserve s Third Battalion, 24th Marine Regiment,
>>>>>>>>Fourth Marine Division, in Nashville, Tennessee. He had been in the Marine
>>>>>>>>Reserves for twelve years, and was thirty years old when he died.

>>

>>>>>>>>About a week before he died, Golczynski sent home this e-mail:

>>

>>>>>>>> I want all of you to be safe. And please don t feel bad for us. We are

>>
>> ...
>>
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