"turtoni"
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news:20ed919b-c52a-40c8-87b5-b61036554d54@79g2000hsk.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 12, 2:54 am, "Sean" bro.org> wrote:> "turtoni"
fastmail.net> wrote in message
>
> news:ee2658ff-f6ea-4d07-a438-796d48cecbe7@d77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 12, 1:34 am, "Sean" bro.org> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>>> "turtoni"
fastmail.net> wrote in message>
>
>
>>> a doco shown here this week, made by Washington Post dude.
>
>> Let's consider logic, and common sense, and flexible values.
>
>> Turtoni said :
>> " Problem with socialism is that it rewards the lazy
>> stupid parasites along with the really disadvantaged."
>
>> It doesn't surprise me that so often in online debates so quickly things
>> become polarised into "cultural belief" structures such as socialism vs
>> capitalism etc etc.
>
>> It is my experience that this polarisation of beliefs occurs
>> significantly
>> more often with our outspoken American friends than with any other
>> culture.
>
>> As the doco website given before states "......... and what the US might
>> learn from their successes and failures."
>
>> Seems to me, there is far less interest in learning anything new or more
>> effective, than there is in concreting in place one's pre-existing
>> cultural
>> beliefs about how "life" is best lived according to the Holy Writ of US
>> Know-it-allism.
>
>> Anyone outside the "box" of the USA will understand exactly what I am
>> referring to here, though those still embedded inside the cultural box
>> are
>> less likely to see the difference, let alone perceive that they could be
>> missing something important that is in their own best interests to
>> become
>> aware of.
>
>> But that's what happens all day everyday on newsgroups ..... the great
>> battle ground of Holy Entrenched Beliefs and Big Egos.
>
>> The key question here is "Why do you believe what you believe in the
>> first
>> place?"
>
>> Why is believing that you have the "best" health care system in the
>> world,
>> when it clearly is NOT by all measures, more important than looking into
>> the
>> issue warts and all?
>
> Well I've lived all over the world and so i guess i can do some
> comparisons. Grew up in England. I have family in Australia.
>
> -------------------
>
> SEAN
> Nothing wrong in doing comparisons, or basing ur opinions on ur own
> personal
> experience. Nuances, and interesting points are valid.
>
> However, am I being foolish or misleading or even misled to primarily
> depend
> on endless numbers of studies by experts in the field of medical health
> care
> to challenge a statement that says the USA has the best health care system
> in the world, when clearly it is not?
>
>> What are you afraid of by admitting that in the world of 180 nations,
>> the
>> USA sits about #30 as far as a working health care system is concerned,
>> and
>> yet it is also known for a fact to be the most expensive per capita in
>> the
>> world, despite 47 million or one sixth of the population not being
>> included
>> in having access to affordable health care services when they need them?
>
> But you're distorting the facts? sits about #30? As in longevrity? And
> i made the point that it's likely due to the American culture: diet
> and sedentary lifestyle.
>
> You made a point about unemployment affecting health. Well the US has
> one of the lowest unemployment rates in the world.
> ---------------------------
> SEAN:
>
> 1) No, I'm not distorting facts at all, I was not saying #30 in Longevity.
> One's health care system is only one component that would affect
> Longevity,
> obviously. What I clearly said before was #30 in the world as far as an
> effective health care system for the nation is concerened [ approximately,
> based upon numerous inputs including the doco i was citing. ]
Which is obviously ridiculous. The number 30 came about from the
longevity figure. Of which the American culture much like the
Australian culture is fraught with bad lifestyles choices.
----------------------------------------
SEAN:
Did it? My your full of assumptions that don't stack up.
I got the #30 from memory after watching the doco 2 days ago.
HERE's a quote even " The World Health Organization says the U.S. health
care system rates 37th in the world in terms of quality and fairness. "
DOH, sorry, #37 .... my memory is not perfect. I should go see my FREE
Doctor for a check up just in case .... NOW THAT's some LIFESTYLE CHOICE
yes? ;-))
here's some more, to make it easier for you ................>>>>
Tonight on FRONTLINE: American health care is in big trouble. It's the
world's most expensive medical system, yet it leaves 47 million people
without coverage and drives hundreds of thousands into bankruptcy each year.
The Japanese are three times more likely to go the doctor as Americans, have
more than twice as many MRI scans, use more drugs and spend more days in
hospital. Yet Japan spends about half as much on health care per capita as
the United States.
One secret to Japan's success? By law, everyone must buy health insurance -
either through an employer or a community plan - and, unlike in the US,
insurers cannot turn down a patient for a pre-existing illness, nor are they
allowed to make a profit.
Germany offers universal health care including medical, dental, mental
health, homeopathy and spa treatment. Professor Karl Lauterbach, a member of
the German parliament, describes it as "a system where the rich pay for the
poor and where the ill are covered by the healthy." As they do in Japan,
medical providers must charge standard prices. This keeps costs down, but it
also means physicians in Germany earn far less than their US counterparts.
In the 1990s, Taiwan researched many health care systems [ all around the
world ] before settling on one where the government collects the money and
pays providers. But the delivery of health care is left to the market. Every
person in Taiwan has a "smart card" containing all of his or her relevant
health information, and bills are paid automatically.
Reid's last stop is Switzerland, a country which, like Taiwan, set out to
reform a system that did not cover all its citizens. In 1994, a national
referendum approved a law called LAMal ("the sickness"), which set up a
universal health care system that, among other things, restricted insurance
companies from making a profit on basic medical care. The Swiss example
shows health care reform is possible, even in a highly capitalist country
with powerful insurance and pharmaceutical companies.
Today, Swiss politicians from the right and left enthusiastically support
universal health care. "Everybody has a right to health care," says Pascal
Couchepin, the current president of Switzerland. "It is a profound need for
people to be sure that if they are struck by destiny...they can have a good
health system."
Here's a link where you can watch the whole program online via PBS, that
dreaded socialistic TV station.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sickaroundtheworld/
here, a full transcript even
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sickaroundtheworld/etc/script.html
yeah, lifestyle choices ARE IMPORTANT after all. ;-)
> 2) Of course, sedentary lifestyle, and obese causing diets affect
> longevity. The postive aspects of the US diet also tend to flow thru into
> better longevity over time, especially the 40's thru the 70's compared to
> the rest of the world's population. But one can have too much of a good
> thing. ;-)
There's an epidemic of obesity as one example. Smoking, drinking, etc,
etc, etc.
> 3) Unemployement .... depends on how you count the statistics, and whether
> or not the employment actually provides the employee with a living wage in
> the society in which they live where the basics of food, clothing,
> transport, housing, health care, and education are able to be met. ;-)
> 3A) fwiw I did not address unemployment as a %% of the popualtion or it's
> impacts on health care, but focused solely on the statistical relevance of
> people "losing their jobs" and the higher likelihood of associated health
> care needs soon after that event occurs.
>
>> Seems to me that way too many in the USA have been sold a lemon, and yet
>> still think it's a peach despite all evidence to the contrary.
>
>> My point? What's obscure misrepresented and misconceived cultural
>> beliefs
>> about "socialism vs capitalism" got to do with building and funding an
>> effective health care system for all American citizens?
>
>> Because it could just as easily be said that:
>
>> The problem with having a socialised national defence system [
>> army/navy/airforce and intelligence services ], run by the Government
>> entirely, and paid for completely out of TAX revenues, is that it
>> rewards
>> the lazy stupid parasites in society along with the really disadvantaged
>> who
>> can't fight."
>
> Yes. The "socialized" national defense system is terrible and likely
> needs to be privatized.
>
> The less government the better imo. But there does need to be a great
> deal of regulation.
>
> If you've ever worked for any goverments you'll know exactly what i'm
> talking about. They generally very poorly managed and waste money like
> water.
>
> ---------------------------------
>
> SEAN:
>
> That's an opinion and another "belief". Not all governments are cut with
> the
> same cloth. Some are very well managed and can save the nation buckets of
> $$
> and can bring through amazing jumps in technological change and new
> quality
> services that otherwise would have taken decades or never if left to
> purest
> market forces, that is, when allowed to operate freely as a Government for
> the benefit of the nation as a whole and not special ideological
> interests.
>
> Anyway, besides believing that your national defence should be privatised
> and not run by the government [ and by default i assume not by the people
> either] but only the rich or some new kind of National Defense HMO system
> to pay for this Private Army, your point was what exactly? :-)
This is just some more American bashing. Perhaps you might want to
worry about your own backyard... But it's good to see one of you can
actually have a reasoned debate. Good luck with your aussie hubris.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Australia
;-)
----------------------------------
SEAN:
Oh contrair, not american bashing at all.
You're as slippery as a jelly fish. LOL
You bought up a "privatised defence system" I was addressing that and your
beliefs, and that's not American bashing at all.
I am able to accept that nothing is or will ever be perfect, isfa health
systems, govt., and society etc. That's life. We all do the best we can with
what we got. But some look inward and others look outward, and some simply
can't even see what is right in front of their face. All options have
challenges, but you get to decide.
You were the one who said and I quote : "Personally i think the US has one
of the best health care systems. In fact it's too good."
Um, to me that simply does not stack up as rational, logical, or anywhere
near the truth of the matter. If you are filthy rich, it probably does have
the "best care" in the world, but not if you're not rich, and not if you
don't have decent insurance, and even when one does have insurance you get
screwed over and refused health services.
How could any system be considered "one of the best in the world" when
junior clearks in a HMO get to tell YOU and your doctor what's appropriate
health care for you right now?
In fact it's too good? Far from it. Doing the "best" with what you got? I
doubt it.
I never said or believed our health system was the "best" .... but one thing
I will say is that despite nothing ever being perfect, and there's always
room for improvements I know the Aussie Health system is FAR better overall
than the USA. That would be an incontrovertible fact by any fair analysis,
imho.
But do keep trying to duck and weave and switch the points of contention by
all means. :-))
Remember, you have the most expensive HCS on the planet times 3, and
47,000,000 people men, women and children have NO adequate heath care
insurance or access, despite living in the richest nation on earth, and a
fraction of the cost of invading Iraq could have provided Universal heath
care for decades, but for some reason you and others "believe" you can't
afford it?
Defies reason and logic, and simple Economics.
Why do you and other Americans believe what you have been told when it
simply is not true or let alone ethical?
