Re: U.S. Life Expectancy Tops 78 as Top Diseases Decline
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Re: U.S. Life Expectancy Tops 78 as Top Diseases Decline         

Group: alt.philosophy · Group Profile
Author: Sean
Date: Jun 11, 2008 22:04

"turtoni" fastmail.net> wrote in message
news:f65f05ff-9be9-4050-b52b-44ec83098dd2@t54g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 11, 11:25 pm, "Sean" bro.org> wrote:
> http://www.sbs.com.au/blogarticle/107965/cutting-edge-sick-around-the...
>
> a doco shown here this week, made by Washington Post dude.
>
> Very "enlightening" about how entrenched accepted beliefs control the way
> how things get done from one nation to another .... and the absolute
> possibility that such blockages can and are overcome. Switzerland and
> taiwan
> being 2 excellent examples of that.
>
> What blocks improvement in US health care imho is severe and somewhat
> extreme Cultural Beliefs about socialism vs capitalism. Of course, if one
> has been baptised in the Holy Waters of Capitalism and Profiteering then
> it's unlikely they would be seen as "extreme", as everything is relative,
> is
> it not?
>
> The most important question imho is "what actually works on a realistic
> and
> practical level?"
>
> 47 million in the richest nation on earth unable to obtain basic health
> care
> to me suggest a health care system that does not work.
>
> Two things stood out during the doco to me.
>
> 1) That it well known through research, that the most likely time for the
> average person to need and use health care services is immediately and
> soon
> after losing their Job. That's a fact, and yet in the USA not only is
> there
> extremely limited unemployment support for workers and their families, but
> the majority immediately lose their personal or their families Health Care
> coverage when they lose their Job.
>
> I'd suggest that the HMO's in the USA are well aware of the above, and is
> the #1 reason why they cut coverage in order to avoid potential new costs.
> IOW, it's all about "profit" and not about real health care for those who
> actually require it.
>
> 2) All the 5 nations covered in the doco impose price controls on the
> health
> care system, including on doctors, hospitals, health insurance bodies, and
> drug companies. In most, health insurance bodies MUST be "not-for-profit"
> but for the benefit of people, and yet there was still active and real
> competition in the system.
>
> In all these nations the health care system worked better on all
> parameters
> and at less cost than the US system overall.
>
> Lastly, what was most indicative was the concept that "health care" was
> seen
> as a universal right for citizens to be able to access affordable care,
> and
> that this was the resposnibility of the Government [ the representatives
> of
> the people ] to ensure an effective system operated in the nation for the
> benefit of ALL citizens.
>
> This appears to be anathema in the USA, and yet there is the concept that
> all children have a right to universal basic education, and all citizens
> have the right to get free legal representation in the courts. Personally
> I
> find it odd that the USA tends to draw a line when it comes to health care
> .... primarily based, as i said earlier, on entrenched "beliefs" that
> health
> care provision is an individuals responsibily alone and not a real shared
> social need that entails equity and access and justice and fairness for
> all.
>
> Do any americans find it odd that Univesal health care systems in advanced
> democracies shown in the doco can achieve better health care and longevity
> outcomes for around 6%% of GDP vs the USA's 18%% of GDP where over 47
> million
> people including children have no adequate access to health services??
>
> Just seems so very very odd to me. What is also so very very odd, is that
> a
> Washington Post reporter would engage in such an "enquiry" overseas, and
> yet
> the US Congress tend to ignore all such clear evidence that there are
> better
> ways to provide a health care system that would not only offer better
> results for the American people they are supposed to represent, but would
> actually significantly save the nation $ billions and make it a more
> productive, healthy, and happy nation.

Good reply. Straight talking, no pseudo bullshit Aussie.

I don't agree with your (the) assessment though.

The longevity problem within the US (and we can compare the same
problems within the UK and Australia) is the culture of diet and
sedentary lifestyle. For example just losing 15 pounds could mean the
difference between taking blood pressure medication and not taking any
medication.
------------------------------------------------------
SEAN:
You're cherry picking and narrowing the debate.
20 somethings dying of AIDS, children dying from a lack of basic health care
and decent nutrition, alcohol abuse, smoking, severe depression etc etc, AND
lack of access to adequate health care due to being unable to afford it, or
unable to afford to take overly expensive drugs, all contribute to the
longevity statistics.

People forced into Bankruptcy over medical bills [ covered in the doco btw ]
also eventually enter into the longevity statistics.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Personally i think the US has one of the best health care systems. In
fact it's too good. Americans want whatever they believe to be the
best and they want it now and they generally get it which compared to
the socialized systems is way better in my experience.

SEAN:
Maybe you could have a closer look. Obviously your personal experience is
incredibly limited, and jumping to some unsustainable assumptions vs the
reality for the 300 million others who live under your so called "best
health care system".

All people need to be considered, not just those with the good jobs, the
good HMO, or the cash rich and asset rich.

---------------------------------------------------------

But sure the people without insurance either need to get better jobs
(which might mean working harder) or need to be better served by
charity systems. Problem with socialism is that it rewards the lazy
stupid parasites along with the really disadvantaged.

-------------------------------------------------------

SEAN:

Why is that last point such a big problem for you? If one lazy parasite got
some govt $ for every 99 really disadvantaged person is it still such a
problem?

How about if only 1 lazy parasite for every 1,000 really disadvantaged
persons, is it still a problem?

How about a realistic practical re-casting of that "belief" ....

"Problem with unbridled capitalism is that it rewards the lazy
stupid parasites along with the really talented and the hard working."
??????

lazy parasite = anyone who makes $ simply because they buy a few pieces of
paper called shares. They do no work, they convey no wisdom, they put in no
effort, they add no benefit to society, and yet get paid billions
collectively every year for doing absolutely nothing.

Why is it OK in your view to pay one group of people a fortune [ and tax
breaks ] for doing nothing, but it's oh so wrong to pay another group of
people small handouts individually to help them survive or to recieve
effective medical care for an illness or injury?

Why [rhetorical] do you not rail against these perceived injustices where
for example just because GW Bush was a rich boys son he makes it all the way
to the White House and for no other reason which would be based upon talent
and ability and intelligence for the Job Description?

Extend that simple example to the children of doctors who get by beautifully
because they can afford to BUY the best, because their Doctor Father or CEO
of a Drug company can charge almost whatever they want??

These questions and more await your as yet uncovered wisdom fount. :-)
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