> On Aug 16, 9:40 am, Jerry Kraus
yahoo.com> wrote:>> On Aug 16, 12:39 am, Immortalist
yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>> On Aug 15, 7:16 am, Jerry Kraus
yahoo.com> wrote:>>
>>>> On Aug 15, 1:02 am, Immortalist
yahoo.com> wrote:>>
>>>>> On Aug 14, 4:43 pm, Jerry Kraus
yahoo.com> wrote:>>
>>>>>> On Aug 14, 12:59 am, Immortalist
yahoo.com>
>>>>>> wrote:>>
>>>>>>> A 'Frankenrobot' with a biological brain
>>
>>>>>>> Meet Gordon, probably the world's first robot controlled
>>>>>>> exclusively by living brain tissue.
>>
>>>>>>> Stitched together from cultured rat neurons, Gordon's primitive
>>>>>>> grey matter was designed at the University of Reading by
>>>>>>> scientists who unveiled the neuron-powered machine on Wednesday.
>>
>>>>>>> Their groundbreaking experiments explore the vanishing boundary
>>>>>>> between natural and artificial intelligence, and could shed
>>>>>>> light on the fundamental building blocks of memory and
>>>>>>> learning, one of the lead researchers told AFP.
>>
>>>>>>> "The purpose is to figure out how memories are actually stored
>>>>>>> in a biological brain," said Kevin Warwick, a professor at the
>>>>>>> University of Reading and one of the robot's principle
>>>>>>> architects.
>>
>>>>>>> Observing how the nerve cells cohere into a network as they
>>>>>>> fire off electrical impulses, he said, may also help scientists
>>>>>>> combat neurodegenerative diseases that attack the brain such as
>>>>>>> Alzheimer's and Parkinson's.
>>
>>>>>>> "If we can understand some of the basics of what is going on in
>>>>>>> our little model brain, it could have enormous medical
>>>>>>> spinoffs," he said.
>>
>>>>>>> Looking a bit like the garbage-compacting hero of the
>>>>>>> blockbuster animation "Wall-E", Gordon has a brain composed of
>>>>>>> 50,000 to 100,000 active neurons.
>>
>>>>>>> Once removed from rat foetuses and disentangled from each other
>>>>>>> with an enzyme bath, the specialised nerve cells are laid out
>>>>>>> in a nutrient- rich medium across an eight-by-eight centimetre
>>>>>>> (five-by-five inch) array of 60 electrodes.
>>
>>>>>>> This "multi-electrode array" (MEA) serves as the interface
>>>>>>> between living tissue and machine, with the brain sending
>>>>>>> electrical impulses to drive the wheels of the robots, and
>>>>>>> receiving impulses delivered by sensors reacting to the
>>>>>>> environment.
>>
>>>>>>> Because the brain is living tissue, it must be housed in a
>>>>>>> special temperature-controlled unit -- it communicates with its
>>>>>>> "body" via a Bluetooth radio link.
>>
>>>>>>> The robot has no additional control from a human or computer.
>>
>>>>>>> From the very start, the neurons get busy. "Within about 24
>>>>>>> hours, they start sending out feelers to each other and making
>>>>>>> connections," said Warwick.
>>
>>>>>>> "Within a week we get some spontaneous firings and brain-like
>>>>>>> activity" similar to what happens in a normal rat -- or human --
>>>>>>> brain, he added.
>>
>>>>>>> But without external stimulation, the brain will wither and die
>>>>>>> within a couple of months.
>>
>>>>>>> "Now we are looking at how best to teach it to behave in certain
>>>>>>> ways," explained Warwick.
>>
>>>>>>> To some extent, Gordon learns by itself. When it hits a wall,
>>>>>>> for example, it gets an electrical stimulation from the robot's
>>>>>>> sensors. As it confronts similar situations, it learns by habit.
>>
>>>>>>> To help this process along, the researchers also use different
>>>>>>> chemicals to reinforce or inhibit the neural pathways that
>>>>>>> light up during particular actions.
>>
>>>>>>> Gordon, in fact, has multiple personalities -- several MEA
>>>>>>> "brains" that the scientists can dock into the robot.
>>
>>>>>>> "It's quite funny -- you get differences between the brains,"
>>>>>>> said Warwick. "This one is a bit boisterous and active, while
>>>>>>> we know another is not going to do what we want it to."
>>
>>>>>>> Mainly for ethical reasons, it is unlikely that researchers at
>>>>>>> Reading or the handful of laboratories around the world
>>>>>>> exploring the same terrain will be using human neurons any time
>>>>>>> soon in the same kind of experiments.
>>
>>>>>>> But rats brain cells are not a bad stand-in: much of the
>>>>>>> difference between rodent and human intelligence, speculates
>>>>>>> Warwick, could be attributed to quantity not quality.
>>
>>>>>>> Rats brains are composed of about one million neurons, the
>>>>>>> specialised cells that relay information across the brain via
>>>>>>> chemicals called neurotransmitters.
>>
>>>>>>> Humans have 100 billion.
>>
>>>>>>> "This is a simplified version of what goes on in the human
>>>>>>> brain where we can look -- and control -- the basic features in
>>>>>>> the way that we want. In a human brain, you can't really do
>>>>>>> that," he said.
>>
>>>>>>> For colleague Ben Whalley, one of the fundamental questions
>>>>>>> facing scientists today is how to link the activity of
>>>>>>> individual neurons with the overwhelmingly complex behaviour of
>>>>>>> whole organisms.
>>
>>>>>>> "The project gives us a unique opportunity to look at something
>>>>>>> which may exhibit complex behaviours, but still remain closely
>>>>>>> tied to the activity of individual neurons," he said.
>>
>>
>>>>>> Interesting game. But, is it really anything more than that? I
>>>>>> often have the feeling, these days, that scientific experiments
>>>>>> aren't really intended to accomplish anything at all, other than
>>>>>> attract attention. What really are they trying to design with
>>>>>> this particular monstrosity, other than the outline for a
>>>>>> research grant?
>>
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>>>>> Should they throw it away then because it will be abused but
>>>>> possibly developed?
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>>>> Somehow, I'm not too worried about that possibility. What worries
>>>> me isn't that this is going to lead to the "Terminator". What
>>>> worries me is that it is extremely unlikely to lead to anything,
>>>> and was only proposed because it sounds a bit like the
>>>> "Terminator".
>>
>>> Can explain why you believe it will ever, in the near or even far
>>> future lead to anything? Using only nerve cells seems like a major
>>> step, like inventing the transistor or something. This could be so
>>> revolutionary that it changes everything in the information world.
>>
>> Not really. We've hooked up electrodes to the human brain that
>> allowed people to crudely manipulate devices. But, we haven't
>> proceeded to be able to manipulate much of anything
>> psychokinetically, for practical purposes. Now we have a few neurons
>> that can be used to very crudely manipulate something. The problem
>> isn't the general concept. It's the crudeness of the technique. And
>> the total abscence of any general approach to structure the research
>> process so as to refine the technology. Scientists are good
>> speculators. But, frequently, they are very bad at moving from
>> theory to practice. Perhaps because the system doesn't really reward
>> results. Neurons produce electrochemical discharges, obviously these
>> discharges can be used to crudely influence an electronic system.
>> But, to produce something of real practical value, that may be a
>> qualitatively different step. Which the scientists have no way of
>> knowing how to proceed to. And may not which to proceed to, if they
>> have no incentive to do so.
> Despite the braying of naysayers scientists continually prove them wrong!
We'll see...
> Example- DNA research will have no utility,
Bet you cant cite anyone that said that.
> Crude flying machines will never be useful for transport.
That wasnt scientists.
> The list goes on and on.
And sometimes it was the scientists themselves too.
Rutherford claimed that nothing useful would ever come out of nuclear physics.
