> On Wed, 10 Sep 2008 17:47:10 -0700, turtoni wrote:

>> "Julian Jaynes (February 27, 1920 – November 21, 1997) was an American
>> psychologist, best known for his book The Origin of Consciousness in the
>> Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind (1976), in which he argued that ancient
>> peoples were not conscious (did not possess an introspective
>> mind-space), but instead had their behavior directed by auditory
>> hallucinations, which they interpreted as the voice of their chief,
>> king, or the gods. Jaynes argued that the change from this mode of
>> thinking (which he called the bicameral mind) to consciousness occurred
>> over a period of centuries about three thousand years ago and was based
>> on the development of metaphorical language and the emergence of
>> writing."

>
> This seems to make basic sense. But, this...
> =====================
> Lascaux is the setting of a complex of caves in southwestern France
> famous for its prehistoric cave paintings. The original caves are located
> near the village of Montignac, in the Dordogne département. They contain
> some of the most well-known Upper Paleolithic art. These paintings are
> estimated to be 16,000 years old. They primarily consist of realistic
> images of large animals, most of which are known from fossil evidence to
> have lived in the area at the time. Lascaux was added to the UNESCO World
> Heritage Sites list in 1979.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lascaux
> =======================
>
> kinda messes the time line up a little. Recently a art historian's has
> argued that these paintings were not strictly representative but also
> interpretive as well. In any case wouldn't these paintings defeat this
> entire argument?
>

>> "At one time, human nature was split in two, an executive part called a
>> god, and a follower part called a man. Neither part was Consciously
>> aware.”

>
> booo!! booo!! Fractionalism, Id, Ego, Superego ... Parent, Child, Adult
> BOOO!  
>
> Given that split what else but..
>
>
>

>> According to Jaynes, ancient people in the bicameral state would
>> function in a manner similar to that of a modern-day schizophrenic.
>>.......

>
> .. this 'idea' of mind as separate parts, one 'talking' to the other and
> so forth, this can cause a mental illness.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

>> In his 1976 work The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the
>> Bicameral Mind, Julian Jaynes proposed that human brains existed in a
>> bicameral state until as recently as 3000 years ago. Jaynes builds a
>> case for this hypothesis by citing evidence from many diverse sources
>> including historical literature. He took an interdisciplinary approach,
>> drawing data from many different fields.

>

>> Jaynes asserts that until roughly the times written about in Homer's
>> Iliad, humans did not generally have the self-awareness characteristic
>> of consciousness as most people experience it today. Rather, Jaynes
>> argued that the bicameral individual was guided by mental commands
>> believed to be issued by external "gods"—the commands which were so
>> often recorded in ancient myths, legends and historical accounts; these
>> commands were however emanating from individuals' own minds. This is
>> exemplified not only in the commands given to characters in ancient
>> epics but also the very muses of Greek mythology which "sang" the poems:
>> Jaynes argues that while later interpretations see the muses as a simple
>> personification of creative inspiration, the ancients literally heard
>> muses as the direct source of their music and poetry.

>
> Interesting. There is a double edge-ness to this. Poems and songs are
> easier to remember. Also, even today artistic inspiration is not entirely
> accounted for within the mental mechanic, even though it is taken for
> granted that this happens 'in one's own mind'. Still, it is typical for
> arty people to describe their work as 'coming to them' as opposed to
> entirely 'from them' as if they were channeling some other force.
>

>> ......................
>> Even in modern times, Jaynes notes that there is no consensus as to the
>> cause or origins of schizophrenia (the subject is still hotly debated).
>> According to Jaynes, schizophrenia is simply a vestige of humanity's
>> earlier state.[4] Recent evidence shows that many schizophrenics don't
>> just hear random voices but experience "command hallucinations"
>> instructing their behavior or urging them to commit certain acts. As
>> support for Jaynes's argument, these command hallucinations are little
>> different from the commands from gods which feature so prominently in
>> ancient stories....
>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/

>
> The_Origin_of_Consciousness_in_the_Breakdown_of_the_Bicameral_Mind
>
> Very dicey seems to me. If hallucination or delusion were a dominate
> aspect of the ancients they would not have lasted very long. Maybe, like
> today, it occurred in a few members of a large group but true group
> schizophrenia would have been too destructive.