"guardian Snow" eck.net.au> wrote in message
news:02f1511f-b7c8-400a-bce0-c7d9911ccc0c@s37g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
On Feb 26, 6:51 am, "Greywolf" cybrzn.com> wrote:

I must point out the Dead Sea Scrolls at this point. I've seen them
first hand and can attest to the fact that indeed we do have modern
copies that have survived.

Sorry. The documents found in and around Qumran are *not* 'original
autographs of the bible. Not a single one is. They're very *old* manuscripts
and fragments to be sure. But not the 'originals'. And without going into
much detail here, it is well known that even among *those* manuscripts
translators have found scribal inconsistencies and texts that differ from
both the Masoretic texts and those of the Septuagint in some instances.
Believe me. If it were discovered that even ONE manuscript were thought to
be an 'original' it would be news spread thoughout the world. You'd hear
about it, *that's* for sure!

I must agree with you on several of your points as being extremely
valid and respectfully concede that you do have logical issues with
the text as written. I honestly enjoy it when I do find people with
your high standard of character that are able to convey a reasonable
argument in a civil manner, even if we do disagree. I find that when
you treat others with respect as you've given me, it makes for at
least good reading between men of understanding, which clearly you
are.

We both know that with the use of computers, we can find flaws in the
scriptures with pin point accuracy. Heaven knows I found literally
hundreds of passages that are conflicting in nature, especially
between the writings of the "Good News" and "apostle" Paul. To be
honest with you, the only words in the scriptures that touch my heart
are the ones in Red Letters that are attributed to the Messiah.
Beyond what the Messiah ????? clearly says, it's the conjecture and
opinions of the writers. To that end, we don't know if they actually
saw these events (Luke didn't) take place or if they are told about it
by other people who attended the trials. So we do have a certain
amount of "hear say" and some errors could have been made when the
originals were recopied. It's not like all the different versions
that are still in circulation agree either. So who's to say what
version is better or worse.. I wasn't alive at that time and so I must
take it on faith.

Faith... thats what it all boils down to is who do you believe! Do we
believe the Messiah/Prophet ????? or do we believe some other
authority. The scriptures have been abused for so long now it's a
tragedy and I know we both agree on that issue. Men use scriptures as
a way of controlling people and manipulating the intellectually
challenged but the same can be said for almost any other major piece
of work including the Communist Manifesto or even The origins of the
species which when clearly understood, is a book that is in support of
enslavement (see Adolph Hitler). We could both probably name a hundred
books that promote some type of enslaved society.

I fully understand that 'faith', if embraced in the best possible way,
comforts
the psyche and encourages one to treat others with respect and grace. No
doubt about that. But if embraced in the best possible way. It can also be
harnessed to do the most dreadful things imaginable to other human beings.
But 'faith' in deity where there is no real substantive presence -- and even
contrary evidence that, on the face of it, points to the non-existance of
deity and even the absurdity on the part of some individuals to actually
claim they can read the mind of a deity for which no material evidence
exists seems to me nothing more than self-delusion. I'm *not* adverse to
belief in deity. It's just I have yet to find *any* reason to believe such a
life-form exists. None whatsoever.

I think in many respect, scriptures in it's true form speaks to
freedom, forgiveness and serving willingly our brothers while
acknowledging where we came from and thats something all the other
books really fall short of. If they do address the issue, it leaves
man in the state of coming from animals and I leave you with this
thought...

If you teach a child he comes from an animal, don't be surprised when
he acts like one.

Unfortunately, it is the 'God believers' who are overflowing our prisons,
not the atheists. That fact alone should dispel quite a few misconceptions
about atheists and atheism. But it doesn't. Christians will continue, by and
large, to view atheists as less than moral, virtuous, or trustworthy. And
atheists pay a heavy price as a result. (I've had potential girlfriends flee
as though they were on fire from me once I told them I was an atheist. Hooo
boy, have some scattered! Unfair. Totally unfair. And the only reason for
that is because they were conditioned to think like that by their parents
and clergy in most instances. How unfortunate.

I look forward to hearing from you again.

Well I implied I was done because, frankly, I don't really care to upset the
religious faith of individuals who wear their faith well. But you are a good
person from what I can detect. And what a *refreshing* change from the
'Pastor Dave' types who visit this newsgroup.

One thing I've detected that we both share is that we both want this world
to be a better place in which to spend our relatively short lives. We both
want to be 'good' people. Too bad strident religious differences often make
that goal vitually impossible on the grand scale.

P.S.
Wouldn't it be great if Christians could actually follow the
scriptures they use to attack everybody else as being somehow
unworthy?

Darn tootin'! One of the things that I cannot understant, for the life of
me, is how the Christians treating me so inhumanely and so mind-bogglingly
cruel out here can even *pretend* they adhere to the teachings of Jesus who
admonishes that one is to love your neighbor as yourself and that one should
treat others in the same manner they themselves would wish to be treated.
And to do so so *flagrantly*, without remorse, pity, or mercy, just makes
the mind reel.

How many people are driven from faith by judgmental idiots
that use scriptures as a way of claiming they are somehow better then
the next man? Judging everybody else by a standard they don't keep
themselves.

Jesus had a word for the type of people you portray, and I think you know
what that word is. (Hint: starts with the letter 'H".)

Mat 5:42 "Give to him who asks of you, and from him who wishes to
borrow from you, do not turn away.
Mat 5:43 "You heard that it was said,1 'You shall love your neighbour
and hate your enemy.' Footnote: 1Hate your enemy was "said," not
"written." 44 "But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those
cursing you, do good to those hating you, and pray for those insulting
you and persecuting you, 45 so that you become sons of your Father in
the heavens. Because He makes His sun rise on the wicked and on the
good, and sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous.

Mat 5:46 "For if you love those loving you, what reward have you? Are
the tax collectors not doing the same too?
Mat 5:47 "And if you greet your brothers only, what do you do more
than others? Are the tax collectors not doing so too?

We are all sinners by that standard.

I will be the first to admit that there is a lot of good that can be said
about some of the texts found in the New Testament, in the Talmud as well.
But it is my belief those texts were composed entirely by man and in many
instances, stated mor elequently by men of another religion and philosophy
in some cases.

Shalom,

Take care,

Greywolf

Snow

I think everyone should experience defeat at least once during their
career. You learn a lot from it.
Lou Holtz