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Author: rscanrscan Date: Jul 13, 2008 12:43
All animals, above the sponges, are hatched or born with a functioning
nervous system fully capable of maneuvering through the expected
milieu of its species. That is how it should be, otherwise the species
would not be here. The genome constructs this nervous system,
constructs it in a human as it does in a beetle.
The Brush-turkey of Australia is a beautiful example. Hatched in a
pile of rotting vegetable matter, it never knows its parents. After
breaking out of the egg, it slithers through the vegetable matter, and
hits the ground running. It runs madly for cover, and never looks
back. It does not imprint, it has nothing to imprint on. Within a
short period (immediate to two hours) it can fly. It forages on its
own.
Birds are described as between the poles of altricial and precocial.
The altricial hatchling is relatively helpless and dependent on its
parents. The precocial hatchling is relatively independent. Some would
describe the Brush-turkey as super-precocial.
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Author: ImmortalistImmortalist Date: Jul 13, 2008 13:31
On Jul 13, 12:43 pm, "rs...@ nycap.rr.com" nycap.rr.com> wrote:> All animals, above the sponges, are hatched or born with a functioning
> nervous system fully capable of maneuvering through the expected
> milieu of its species. That is how it should be, otherwise the species
> would not be here. The genome constructs this nervous system,
> constructs it in a human as it does in a beetle.
>
> The Brush-turkey of Australia is a beautiful example. Hatched in a
> pile of rotting vegetable matter, it never knows its parents. After
> breaking out of the egg, it slithers through the vegetable matter, and
> hits the ground running. It runs madly for cover, and never looks
> back. It does not imprint, it has nothing to imprint on. Within a
> short period (immediate to two hours) it can fly. It forages on its
> own.
>
> Birds are described as between the poles of altricial and precocial.
> The altricial hatchling is relatively helpless and dependent on its
> parents. The precocial hatchling is relatively independent. Some would
> describe the Brush-turkey as super-precocial.
> ...
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Author: Jure SahJure Sah Date: Jul 13, 2008 15:37
> The human is said to “learn” to walk. We should say that the wiring of
> the motor program generators involved in walking is completed, and the
> human walks. Similarly when the MPG’s for phonemes are completed, we
> have “baby talk”. When the synaptic changes under the rules
> established by the genome are completed, we have language.
Perhaps it could be said that the environmental signal decoding and
encoding is hardwired genetically but the rest is adaptive?
A child may learn different languages, learn to reproduce different
voices but never has to learn to learn how to use the vocal cords to
copy a certain vocal frequency.
The methods by which the ear senses different vocal frequencies differs
greately from the method by which the vocal cords reproduce the same
vocal frequencies. Duplicating a sound is not straightforward, yet it is
how a child learns to speak. The mechanism required to make the input
and output comparable obviously exists beforehand.
Perhaps a bad example, but there are many such structures in a human,
not all necesarily implemented in neurons. Maybe grasping an object
based on appearance.
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Author: bigfletch8bigfletch8 Date: Jul 13, 2008 17:12
On Jul 14, 5:43Â am, "rs...@ nycap.rr.com" nycap.rr.com> wrote:> All animals, above the sponges, are hatched or born with a functioning
> nervous system fully capable of maneuvering through the expected
> milieu of its species. That is how it should be, otherwise the species
> would not be here. The genome constructs this nervous system,
> constructs it in a human as it does in a beetle.
>
> The Brush-turkey of Australia is a beautiful example. Hatched in a
> pile of rotting vegetable matter, it never knows its parents. After
> breaking out of the egg, it slithers through the vegetable matter, and
> hits the ground running. It runs madly for cover, and never looks
> back. It does not imprint, it has nothing to imprint on. Within a
> short period (immediate to two hours) it can fly. It forages on its
> own.
>
> Birds are described as between the poles of altricial and precocial.
> The altricial hatchling is relatively helpless and dependent on its
> parents. The precocial hatchling is relatively independent. Some would
> describe the Brush-turkey as super-precocial.
> ...
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Author: bigfletch8bigfletch8 Date: Jul 13, 2008 17:22
On Jul 14, 8:37 am, Jure Sah gmail.com> wrote:>> The human is said to “learn” to walk. We should say that the wiring of
>> the motor program generators involved in walking is completed, and the
>> human walks. Similarly when the MPG’s for phonemes are completed, we
>> have “baby talk”. When the synaptic changes under the rules
>> established by the genome are completed, we have language.
>
> Perhaps it could be said that the environmental signal decoding and
> encoding is hardwired genetically but the rest is adaptive?
Exactly. This is why each human becomes unique, and is able to discern
when he is not fulfiling that 'unique' role.The cause of all
discomfort.Discomfort is also hard wired as a 'biofeedback' mechanism
to keep you on track.
In other words, if you are not being true to yourself you will
stimulate inbalance.
BOfL
>
> A child may learn different languages, learn to reproduce different
> voices but never has to learn to learn how to use the vocal cords to
> copy a certain vocal frequency.
>
> The methods by...
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Author: ZerkonXZerkonX Date: Jul 14, 2008 05:02
On Sun, 13 Jul 2008 12:43:50 -0700, rscan@ nycap.rr.com wrote:
> The
> human is equipped to survive in its mother’s arms. The Brush-turkey is
> ready to take on the entire universe.
As are bacteria.
> The human is said to “learn” to walk. We should say that the wiring of
> the motor program generators involved in walking is completed, and the
> human walks. Similarly when the MPG’s for phonemes are completed, we
> have “baby talk”. When the synaptic changes under the rules
> established by the genome are completed, we have language.
Much more to this. The language does not happen as the 'wiring' happens.
All rules here are subjected to and relevant to a messy and more complex
context as the entire development of the brain is relevant.
Understandably, science and engineering must start somewhere. 'Wiring' is
a place, even as metaphor as it is yet more "rules established by the
genome". However taking this starting point away from specific and direct
purpose and framing it as a general even universal understanding of human
nature is a mistake.
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Author: Josip AlmasiJosip Almasi Date: Jul 14, 2008 05:52
> All animals, above the sponges, are hatched or born with a functioning
> nervous system fully capable of maneuvering through the expected
> milieu of its species.
You know that many mammals are born blind, right?
So what is 'expected milieu'?
> The human is said to “learn” to walk. We should say that the wiring of
> the motor program generators involved in walking is completed, and the
> human walks.
How about we grow a human in a zero-g environment?;)
I suppose a human baby would adapt, contrary to i.e. elephant baby which
has hardwired walk.
To make long story short - IMHO it's not about expected but about
*unexpected*.
Regards...
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Author: Wolf KirchmeirWolf Kirchmeir Date: Jul 14, 2008 06:43
Josip Almasi wrote:
>> All animals, above the sponges, are hatched or born with a functioning
>> nervous system fully capable of maneuvering through the expected
>> milieu of its species.
>
> You know that many mammals are born blind, right?
> So what is 'expected milieu'?
Mother, nest, ....
>> The human is said to “learn” to walk. We should say that the wiring of
>> the motor program generators involved in walking is completed, and the
>> human walks.
>
> How about we grow a human in a zero-g environment?;)
> I suppose a human baby would adapt, contrary to i.e. elephant baby which
> has hardwired walk.
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Author: rscanrscan Date: Jul 14, 2008 08:11
On Jul 14, 9:43Â am, Wolf Kirchmeir wrote:
> Josip Almasi wrote:
>>> All animals, above the sponges, are hatched or born with a functioning
>>> nervous system fully capable of maneuvering through the expected
>>> milieu of its species.
>
>> You know that many mammals are born blind, right?
>> So what is 'expected milieu'?
>
> Mother, nest, ....
We try to speak as a scientist, but we are weak. Scientific dogma is
that "there is no God in the machine; no soul in the man". Souls see
the expected. Scientists see a sequence of nucleotides that survived.
Souls expect the sunrise. Scientists see a genome that constructs a
clock with a twenty-five hour molecular-driven period. Such a clock
can phase-lock in a twenty-four hour milieu. But only a soul can see
the importaqnce of phase-locking.
Oh, well!
>
>>> The human is said to “learn” to walk. We should say that the wiring of
>>> the motor program generators involved in walking is completed, and the
>>> human walks.
>
>> How about we grow a human...
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Author: Josip AlmasiJosip Almasi Date: Jul 14, 2008 09:02
Wolf Kirchmeir wrote:
>>
>> You know that many mammals are born blind, right?
>> So what is 'expected milieu'?
>
> Mother, nest, ....
Yeah right:)
OK it's what you expect; but a blind newborn will learn to see in any
envronment, it doesn't need mother nor nest to see. Only needs light.
>> I suppose a human baby would adapt, contrary to i.e. elephant baby
>> which has hardwired walk.
>
> Mot true. Elephants (along with other herbivores) do not walk
> immediately after birth.
Right, they dont walk immediatelly after birth, they need about 30 mins
to start walking:)
> Nor do they master walking immediately, once
> they begin.
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